10 ms·

When it’s scarce you want to waste it on the early morning?

nemo44x 5y ago
It's not wasted then, it's quite useful. Having kids walk to school or to the bus in the dark is ridiculous. In northern areas the Sun won't come up until 8:30AM. Not to mention the extra energy use.
- briffle 5y ago
  My kids enjoy playing outside after school with the other kids on our street after school. I understand your point, but my family wants the opposite.
- vkou 5y ago
  > Having kids walk to school or to the bus in the dark is ridiculous. Correct, which is why the correct solution is to not have school start so bloody early. For everyone not between the ages of 6 and 18, an extra hour of daylight in the evening is far more useful.
  - seanalltogether 5y ago
    If school starting time get shifted, work starting times get shifted, and then you're right back where you started.
    - grey-area 5y ago
      Except without everyone adjusting clocks and all the confusion that goes with it.
  - nemo44x 5y ago
    Parents have to get their kids off to school before work. Most people wake up by 7:30AM (you may not but the rest of the functioning world does) and need the Sun in the morning. It also saves energy.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > Having kids walk to school or to the bus in the dark is ridiculous. I agree. The solution to that is not to have kids go to school stupid early. Studies show that kids prefer to learn later in the day. Besides, after school activities continue into the dark in the winter. Better to let the kids be able to be outside/playing/doing band/whatever in the evening instead of stuck inside because it's dark with their free time.
  - nemo44x 5y ago
    Studies also show that parents have to get the kids dropped off before work. And 8:30 is stupid early.
    - colordrops 5y ago
      8:30 is a number. We should base schedules around when the sun is out rather than a number.
      - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
        Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of this shift? If we are trying to give workers more daylight in the evening, then we shift the work and school day later, the impact would be nil. Fundamentally, for this change to satisfy its mandate, the kids have to to to school in the dark during the winter. Fwiw, I think it's a fine thing. I always found it very romantic to go to school when it is still dark when I was young.
        colordrops 5y ago
        No, we should get rid of any shift of the clock, and then set schedules for work and school based on the sun. The start and end times of school and work should change during certain parts of the year if there is concern about daylight.
        asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  Right. It's going to be twilight until 8am in NYC for the whole of December and January under this proposal.
- btmorex 5y ago
  Where I am, it's light out from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m. during the shortest days of the winter. The thing is a lot of people aren't even awake at 7 a.m. and if they are (I am), they're doing indoor things like making breakfast/showering/etc. So for a lot of people, that hour or two of morning light is really just wasted. In the afternoon though, everyone can take advantage of the daylight.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    "lot of people aren't even awake at 7 a.m." I wonder what the actual percentages are. It's probably a thing where each group can't believe that there's a significant number of people in the other. "that hour or two of morning light is really just wasted." Only for people who wake up late. There could also be benefits to aligning one's circadian rhythm to morning light.
    - nemo44x 5y ago
      Go out and watch the highways at 7:30AM. They're packed. Most people start work at 8AM. Which means they're probably on the road by 7:30 and probably awake by 6:30.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        Found this. https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/overflow-data-finds-the-average-time-most-americans-get-to-work https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/overflow-data-finds-th...
        nemo44x 5y ago
        Thanks! A lot of people here I assume can make their own hours more or less, don't have kids, and sleep until 8AM or so. But the vast majority of people have to be to a workplace by 8AM and wake up at 6AM so they can get themselves and their kids ready. They don't want 2.5 hours of darkness in the morning. Some light before and after work is ideal.
- colordrops 5y ago
  This is a problem of schools and other organizations being stuck to a particular time/number, rather than using the sun to determine when they should start. It's a perfect example of confusing the map with the territory.
  - nemo44x 5y ago
    It's functional and deliberate. Many people have to work and commuting, getting the kids ready, getting yourself ready means you need to be up early so you can get to work by 9AM. Sunlight in the morning is far more useful for the functioning world.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    Ok, but any situation where you start your day with light in the mornings in winter in the North will necessarily mean that you end your day with darkness in the evenings. Whether we call the time the day starts "7AM" or "8AM" doesn't change this. The fundamental trade-off is: sunlight when you wake up and you're going to school/work, or sunlight when you're coming back from school/work? Unless you reduce the school/work day, this is unavoidable.
    - colordrops 5y ago
      I don't disagree with you at all, I think you missed my point. We should decide when we want people to be in light and dark, and not shift numbers on a clock to match that.
      - tsimionescu 5y ago
        Sure, but it's functionally impossible to make this choice without changing the clocks. Too many events are coordinated - shop opening times have to account for other business start times that have to account for school start times. Changing the clock is, realistically, the only way to coordinate all the necessary actors. Otherwise, if schools decided to start at 9AM, they would put a huge burden on parents starting work at 9AM, who no longer have time to drop their kids off and still make it to their workplace.
- ghostly_s 5y ago
  We here in the Northern states are walking to school in the dark either way. Give me sunlight in the evening when I can use it.
- ddoolin 5y ago
  I was going to the bus stop in the dark even with DST and I didn't even live in the north. First bell was generally 8 AM and you needed to be at the bus stop well before then obviously, especially if you lived in the earliest parts of the route.
- vidarh 5y ago
  I went to school in the dark during winter my entire childhood. We played out after dark after getting home too, because otherwise there'd be no opportunity to play outside during winter. It worked just fine.
- collegeburner 5y ago
  Some of us get up at 5 or 6 and hate the effect on our mental health of having the first few hours every day being dark.
  - ddoolin 5y ago
    Some of us get off at 5 and hate the effect on our mental health of always leaving work in darkness/never having any free time in the sunlight.
    - nemo44x 5y ago
      Most people don't have this problem though. Most functional people have to wake early to get everything ready for the day. So although there isn't a perfect system, for the vast majority of people having daylight in the morning would be ideal.
      - KptMarchewa 5y ago
        I don't really "get everything ready for the day". I need to take a shower, brush teeth and make coffee. It's your problem if you push everything to the morning.
        nemo44x 5y ago
        What about getting kids ready? Commuting?
      - mynameisvlad 5y ago
        Do you have a study for this? Or just your own opinion and feelings? While also anecdotal, the responses here seem to favor evenings as opposed to mornings.
        nemo44x 5y ago
        Most people begin work at 8AM. I know that probably isn't the norm on this Website of younger skewing skewing people that can make their won hours (that includes me!) but it's true for most the country. Also people with kids - you need to get them ready and off before you go to work. Sunlight is really useful for this.
- sophacles 5y ago
  > Having kids walk to school or to the bus... Will get family services called on you. I don't think this affects more than a handful of people in 2022.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    If you're one of those people, the effects can be brutal.
  - JoyfulTurkey 5y ago
    Huh, I lived in a suburb of Cleveland a few years back where everyone still was walking. Thought it would be more common in densely populated areas. Guess not. https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-lakewood-ohio-walking-school.html https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-lakewood-ohio-walking-...
    - nostrademons 5y ago
      Common in my Bay Area suburb. People will even sell their houses when their kids get to elementary school and pay half a million more to move a mile away, so that they don't have to deal with drop-off.
  - CogitoCogito 5y ago
    What 3rd world country do you live in where kids can't walk to school or the bus?
munk-a 5y ago
I too am a night owl - but we need light in the morning more than later into the evening. A lot of kids have weird school start times which leads the morning commute being a lot more distributed than the evening one. Walking to the bus alone on dark streets isn't safe for a good chunk of the population.
- FredPret 5y ago
  Then school should start much later!
  - munk-a 5y ago
    That's a great idea - as someone with no kids I can see absolutely no downside to it.
  - collegeburner 5y ago
    No it shouldn't. The benefit of forcing the discipline of getting up early on children is greater than any health impact or inconvenience.
    - munk-a 5y ago
      That'd be the same benefit that forces sugar and caffeine dependencies on adults so they can maintain unnatural working schedules and has contributed heavily to the obesity epidemic, right?
      - collegeburner 5y ago
        Rising with the sun is much more natural than getting up when it's dark. Most people need time before work, so we need the sun to rise a few hours before work. I learned some discipline and started getting up early without sugar and caffeine, if the young people today would rather complain than do the same that's not my problem.
    - JadeNB 5y ago
      > No it shouldn't. The benefit of forcing the discipline of getting up early on children is greater than any health impact or inconvenience. Since tone can often travel poorly across the wire—that is sarcasm, right?
LargeWu 5y ago
During the winter in the northern latitudes it's not so early.
CogitoCogito 5y ago
How can you call it "wasted" when it's up to person preference. You do understand there are people who prefer being awake early instead of late right?

It's not wasted then, it's quite useful. Having kids walk to school or to the bus in the dark is ridiculous. In northern areas the Sun won't come up until 8:30AM. Not to mention the extra energy use.

briffle 5y ago
My kids enjoy playing outside after school with the other kids on our street after school. I understand your point, but my family wants the opposite.
vkou 5y ago
> Having kids walk to school or to the bus in the dark is ridiculous. Correct, which is why the correct solution is to not have school start so bloody early. For everyone not between the ages of 6 and 18, an extra hour of daylight in the evening is far more useful.
- seanalltogether 5y ago
  If school starting time get shifted, work starting times get shifted, and then you're right back where you started.
  - grey-area 5y ago
    Except without everyone adjusting clocks and all the confusion that goes with it.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  Parents have to get their kids off to school before work. Most people wake up by 7:30AM (you may not but the rest of the functioning world does) and need the Sun in the morning. It also saves energy.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
HWR_14 5y ago
> Having kids walk to school or to the bus in the dark is ridiculous. I agree. The solution to that is not to have kids go to school stupid early. Studies show that kids prefer to learn later in the day. Besides, after school activities continue into the dark in the winter. Better to let the kids be able to be outside/playing/doing band/whatever in the evening instead of stuck inside because it's dark with their free time.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  Studies also show that parents have to get the kids dropped off before work. And 8:30 is stupid early.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    8:30 is a number. We should base schedules around when the sun is out rather than a number.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of this shift? If we are trying to give workers more daylight in the evening, then we shift the work and school day later, the impact would be nil. Fundamentally, for this change to satisfy its mandate, the kids have to to to school in the dark during the winter. Fwiw, I think it's a fine thing. I always found it very romantic to go to school when it is still dark when I was young.
      - colordrops 5y ago
        No, we should get rid of any shift of the clock, and then set schedules for work and school based on the sun. The start and end times of school and work should change during certain parts of the year if there is concern about daylight.
        asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
Right. It's going to be twilight until 8am in NYC for the whole of December and January under this proposal.
btmorex 5y ago
Where I am, it's light out from 7 a.m. to 4 p.m. during the shortest days of the winter. The thing is a lot of people aren't even awake at 7 a.m. and if they are (I am), they're doing indoor things like making breakfast/showering/etc. So for a lot of people, that hour or two of morning light is really just wasted. In the afternoon though, everyone can take advantage of the daylight.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "lot of people aren't even awake at 7 a.m." I wonder what the actual percentages are. It's probably a thing where each group can't believe that there's a significant number of people in the other. "that hour or two of morning light is really just wasted." Only for people who wake up late. There could also be benefits to aligning one's circadian rhythm to morning light.
  - nemo44x 5y ago
    Go out and watch the highways at 7:30AM. They're packed. Most people start work at 8AM. Which means they're probably on the road by 7:30 and probably awake by 6:30.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      Found this. https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/overflow-data-finds-the-average-time-most-americans-get-to-work https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/overflow-data-finds-th...
      - nemo44x 5y ago
        Thanks! A lot of people here I assume can make their own hours more or less, don't have kids, and sleep until 8AM or so. But the vast majority of people have to be to a workplace by 8AM and wake up at 6AM so they can get themselves and their kids ready. They don't want 2.5 hours of darkness in the morning. Some light before and after work is ideal.
colordrops 5y ago
This is a problem of schools and other organizations being stuck to a particular time/number, rather than using the sun to determine when they should start. It's a perfect example of confusing the map with the territory.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  It's functional and deliberate. Many people have to work and commuting, getting the kids ready, getting yourself ready means you need to be up early so you can get to work by 9AM. Sunlight in the morning is far more useful for the functioning world.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Ok, but any situation where you start your day with light in the mornings in winter in the North will necessarily mean that you end your day with darkness in the evenings. Whether we call the time the day starts "7AM" or "8AM" doesn't change this. The fundamental trade-off is: sunlight when you wake up and you're going to school/work, or sunlight when you're coming back from school/work? Unless you reduce the school/work day, this is unavoidable.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    I don't disagree with you at all, I think you missed my point. We should decide when we want people to be in light and dark, and not shift numbers on a clock to match that.
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      Sure, but it's functionally impossible to make this choice without changing the clocks. Too many events are coordinated - shop opening times have to account for other business start times that have to account for school start times. Changing the clock is, realistically, the only way to coordinate all the necessary actors. Otherwise, if schools decided to start at 9AM, they would put a huge burden on parents starting work at 9AM, who no longer have time to drop their kids off and still make it to their workplace.
ghostly_s 5y ago
We here in the Northern states are walking to school in the dark either way. Give me sunlight in the evening when I can use it.
ddoolin 5y ago
I was going to the bus stop in the dark even with DST and I didn't even live in the north. First bell was generally 8 AM and you needed to be at the bus stop well before then obviously, especially if you lived in the earliest parts of the route.
vidarh 5y ago
I went to school in the dark during winter my entire childhood. We played out after dark after getting home too, because otherwise there'd be no opportunity to play outside during winter. It worked just fine.
collegeburner 5y ago
Some of us get up at 5 or 6 and hate the effect on our mental health of having the first few hours every day being dark.
- ddoolin 5y ago
  Some of us get off at 5 and hate the effect on our mental health of always leaving work in darkness/never having any free time in the sunlight.
  - nemo44x 5y ago
    Most people don't have this problem though. Most functional people have to wake early to get everything ready for the day. So although there isn't a perfect system, for the vast majority of people having daylight in the morning would be ideal.
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      I don't really "get everything ready for the day". I need to take a shower, brush teeth and make coffee. It's your problem if you push everything to the morning.
      - nemo44x 5y ago
        What about getting kids ready? Commuting?
    - mynameisvlad 5y ago
      Do you have a study for this? Or just your own opinion and feelings? While also anecdotal, the responses here seem to favor evenings as opposed to mornings.
      - nemo44x 5y ago
        Most people begin work at 8AM. I know that probably isn't the norm on this Website of younger skewing skewing people that can make their won hours (that includes me!) but it's true for most the country. Also people with kids - you need to get them ready and off before you go to work. Sunlight is really useful for this.
sophacles 5y ago
> Having kids walk to school or to the bus... Will get family services called on you. I don't think this affects more than a handful of people in 2022.
- giantg2 5y ago
  If you're one of those people, the effects can be brutal.
- JoyfulTurkey 5y ago
  Huh, I lived in a suburb of Cleveland a few years back where everyone still was walking. Thought it would be more common in densely populated areas. Guess not. https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-lakewood-ohio-walking-school.html https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-lakewood-ohio-walking-...
  - nostrademons 5y ago
    Common in my Bay Area suburb. People will even sell their houses when their kids get to elementary school and pay half a million more to move a mile away, so that they don't have to deal with drop-off.
- CogitoCogito 5y ago
  What 3rd world country do you live in where kids can't walk to school or the bus?

munk-a 5y ago

I too am a night owl - but we need light in the morning more than later into the evening. A lot of kids have weird school start times which leads the morning commute being a lot more distributed than the evening one. Walking to the bus alone on dark streets isn't safe for a good chunk of the population.

FredPret 5y ago
Then school should start much later!
- munk-a 5y ago
  That's a great idea - as someone with no kids I can see absolutely no downside to it.
- collegeburner 5y ago
  No it shouldn't. The benefit of forcing the discipline of getting up early on children is greater than any health impact or inconvenience.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    That'd be the same benefit that forces sugar and caffeine dependencies on adults so they can maintain unnatural working schedules and has contributed heavily to the obesity epidemic, right?
    - collegeburner 5y ago
      Rising with the sun is much more natural than getting up when it's dark. Most people need time before work, so we need the sun to rise a few hours before work. I learned some discipline and started getting up early without sugar and caffeine, if the young people today would rather complain than do the same that's not my problem.
  - JadeNB 5y ago
    > No it shouldn't. The benefit of forcing the discipline of getting up early on children is greater than any health impact or inconvenience. Since tone can often travel poorly across the wire—that is sarcasm, right?

LargeWu 5y ago

During the winter in the northern latitudes it's not so early.

CogitoCogito 5y ago

How can you call it "wasted" when it's up to person preference. You do understand there are people who prefer being awake early instead of late right?