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I'd like to buy Zack a drink, because all of this is obvious to those poor shmucks among us that handle the support end of things (also known as the "shit end")

I'd like to buy Zack a drink, because all of this is obvious to those poor shmucks among us that handle the support end of things (also known as the "shit end"). I've been saying a lot of the same things for years. I'm tired of it now; I'm starting to give up, because it's obvious there isn't a programmer out there that gives a damn. You can try telling them that there's something wrong with software -- something fundamental, something in the process itself that has become horribly broken -- but they'd rather tell you why you're wrong rather than really listen to why you're frustrated. Then if, as a user (or programmer) you complain about something, they say, "So build your own version." What, we're supposed to re-build the world? OK, fine. So you start building your own version of something. Then the response is, "Why are you reinventing the wheel? That's already been done." But, what the fuck do I know? I spent a couple of hours in a meeting today with a client explaining why upgrading -- er, pardon, "migrating" -- from Joomla 1.5 to 1.7 wasn't going to happen without a lot of money involved. Then I went to another client and we fixed a broken Windows network stack and a handful of other stuff. Then I came home and unboxed the new laptop that I just bought because my old one could no longer run Firefox anymore -- even though it ran it just damn well fine enough a few years ago. Other than the new laptop, this is pretty much my day -- all day, every day. Well, me and the other guy in my shop. And nobody else seems to think there's anything strange about this stuff. So Samba's documentation is a mess and Samba 4 never got around to implementing allowed_users, which is absolutely necessary in a Windows AD environment? Pfaah, big deal, so what? So Western Digital's backup software interferes with Outlook in funny ways? Psh. Who cares, who's that going to affect? So everybody's decided to abandon sane software versioning altogether and make the support end of things even more nuts? Hah! Get with the program you support idiots, you're supposed to want to spend all day upgrading software and dealing with the inevitable fallout. Besides, users that don't like upgrades are just morons, they just don't know what they like. As soon as they get used to the new version, they'll like it better, you'll see. All of this is stuff I've personally heard, or seen in places like HN ... and not just a few times here and there. Software used to be fun. I remember when it was, when it seemed like most things just worked, even though they didn't look pretty. I remember when it seemed like I could just open something up and start hacking on it without having to hold tens of thousands of lines of code in my head, spread over dozens of files. I remember when looking at someone else's code could actually teach me something, instead of making me want to cry. I really don't like this industry much anymore. I guess that makes me a bad hacker or something.

alnayyir 15y ago
>allowed_users You can pay someone to implement this, as well as any other missing AD features, then open source it so no-one has to implement it again. The original devs that did much of the reverse-engineering work on Samba have since moved on to much more rewarding work. That work will essentially never be done again, nor be improved upon until financial incentives are introduced. Much of the work on Samba since has been bug fixes and pushing your food around on your plate. We are not your servants, we are people. Give value, get value. Open source is not your custom-fit panacea. >"So build your own version."..."Why are you reinventing the wheel? That's already been done." Probably two different groups of the people, the latter group is likely harried contributors to a project you're asking for help from who doesn't have the benefit of the context for the work you're doing. It's a common thing in mailing lists and IRC. >So Western Digital's backup software interferes with Outlook in funny ways? We're dipping into two different pools of shitware for examples of bad software now. >So everybody's decided to abandon sane software versioning altogether and make the support end of things even more nuts? It's gotten more standard in some respects, thanks to SemVer. I can't speak for companies that have decided to treat it like a high score, much like the Linux distributions of the late 90s and early 00s. >Software used to be fun. Still fun for me, after ~15 years of coding, 5 of them professionally. Sounds like you're just grumpy and unwilling to invest in swatting any of the gnats flying in your face. That or you should take up buddhism, seriously. I'm an atheist but there's some benefit to learning when you should and should not care about things.
- thaumaturgy 15y ago
  Thank you (seriously) for demonstrating the part where I said, "but they'd rather tell you why you're wrong rather than really listen to why you're frustrated." > ...as well as any other missing AD features... This isn't exactly a feature, it's a core part of AD permissions. Samba 4 was developed for the purpose of taking on server roles in an AD environment. > We are not your servants, we are people. Give value, get value. Open source is not your custom-fit panacea. OK, I hear that a lot. And it's a fair criticism. Now, here's the other half of it: support people are not your janitors. Quit expecting us to spend hours digging through arcane documentation, followed by further hours troubleshooting things that you left half-finished, and then turn around and tell us to write it our own damn selves. Because, seriously, there just aren't enough hours in the day. I'd love to contribute more to open source, but first I have to get enough revenue in my business to support that, and before I can do that, I have to figure out how to fix my clients' technical issues without raping their pocketbooks. The harder my job gets, the less likely I am to contribute. For example, I might be writing a Jooma migration tool right now to fix the stupid 1.5->1.7 issues, and I'd be happy to release it and even support it for as long as people need it, but first I have to figure out what the hell is wrong with the wireless drivers in Linux on the new laptop... > We're dipping into two different pools of shitware for examples of bad software now. Yeah, that was the point: examples of bad software cross all disciplines, all companies, all environments. If it was just one company that consistently produced crap software, it would be easy to say that there's probably something broken at that company. But when there are so many companies, and so many freelancers, and so many open source developers producing crap software -- there's probably some issue with software development itself. > That or you should take up buddhism, seriously. Eh, I appreciate that, really, but I don't want to stop caring. I want it to be better.

alnayyir 15y ago

>allowed_users You can pay someone to implement this, as well as any other missing AD features, then open source it so no-one has to implement it again. The original devs that did much of the reverse-engineering work on Samba have since moved on to much more rewarding work. That work will essentially never be done again, nor be improved upon until financial incentives are introduced. Much of the work on Samba since has been bug fixes and pushing your food around on your plate. We are not your servants, we are people. Give value, get value. Open source is not your custom-fit panacea. >"So build your own version."..."Why are you reinventing the wheel? That's already been done." Probably two different groups of the people, the latter group is likely harried contributors to a project you're asking for help from who doesn't have the benefit of the context for the work you're doing. It's a common thing in mailing lists and IRC. >So Western Digital's backup software interferes with Outlook in funny ways? We're dipping into two different pools of shitware for examples of bad software now. >So everybody's decided to abandon sane software versioning altogether and make the support end of things even more nuts? It's gotten more standard in some respects, thanks to SemVer. I can't speak for companies that have decided to treat it like a high score, much like the Linux distributions of the late 90s and early 00s. >Software used to be fun. Still fun for me, after ~15 years of coding, 5 of them professionally. Sounds like you're just grumpy and unwilling to invest in swatting any of the gnats flying in your face. That or you should take up buddhism, seriously. I'm an atheist but there's some benefit to learning when you should and should not care about things.

thaumaturgy 15y ago
Thank you (seriously) for demonstrating the part where I said, "but they'd rather tell you why you're wrong rather than really listen to why you're frustrated." > ...as well as any other missing AD features... This isn't exactly a feature, it's a core part of AD permissions. Samba 4 was developed for the purpose of taking on server roles in an AD environment. > We are not your servants, we are people. Give value, get value. Open source is not your custom-fit panacea. OK, I hear that a lot. And it's a fair criticism. Now, here's the other half of it: support people are not your janitors. Quit expecting us to spend hours digging through arcane documentation, followed by further hours troubleshooting things that you left half-finished, and then turn around and tell us to write it our own damn selves. Because, seriously, there just aren't enough hours in the day. I'd love to contribute more to open source, but first I have to get enough revenue in my business to support that, and before I can do that, I have to figure out how to fix my clients' technical issues without raping their pocketbooks. The harder my job gets, the less likely I am to contribute. For example, I might be writing a Jooma migration tool right now to fix the stupid 1.5->1.7 issues, and I'd be happy to release it and even support it for as long as people need it, but first I have to figure out what the hell is wrong with the wireless drivers in Linux on the new laptop... > We're dipping into two different pools of shitware for examples of bad software now. Yeah, that was the point: examples of bad software cross all disciplines, all companies, all environments. If it was just one company that consistently produced crap software, it would be easy to say that there's probably something broken at that company. But when there are so many companies, and so many freelancers, and so many open source developers producing crap software -- there's probably some issue with software development itself. > That or you should take up buddhism, seriously. Eh, I appreciate that, really, but I don't want to stop caring. I want it to be better.