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I don't see the relationship. Idiots can kill people regardless of car power. I've not seen any relationship between car power and percentage of cars in serio

by sliken 5y ago

I don't see the relationship. Idiots can kill people regardless of car power. I've not seen any relationship between car power and percentage of cars in serious accidents. If you look at the top 10 cars involved in accidents (per 1000 cars), it's not a particularly powerful bunch. In the USA last year the stop accident prone car was a Scion FR-S with under 200 HP (150 lb-feet). The Toyota Prius (even Toyota marketing makes fun of it's performance) is at #8. Personally I feel safer in a capable car, even if it has crazy 0-60 times and impressive HP/Torque numbers.

willis936 5y ago
That's because you're normalizing by the wrong value. You should be normalizing "number of accidents per 1000 cars of the same model". https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-death-rates-by-make-and-model https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-death-rates-by-make-and-...
- DennisP 5y ago
  From a quick glance at that, a Chevy Malibu with a 0-60 of 7.8 seconds has a worse death rate than a Corvette, which has a time of around three seconds.
  - willis936 5y ago
    The Malibu has a multi-vehicle crash death rate (MV) of 36 and single-vehicle crash death rate (SV) of 24. The Corvette is 4 and 53. Individual model comparisons aren't of much consequence (especially with such incomplete data), but trends are. If you scan the MV and SV columns in the midsize and large sections and compare it to the sports car and 2-door sections you'll see the trend I'm highlighting. The pdf linked on that page is helpful for this. https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf/55/2 https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf...
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Care to explain the comically large spread between the 2wd and the 4wd Juke? Or perhaps the various Charger models? The data seams to be screaming "driver demographics" at you.
anonfornoreason 5y ago
Sure but what if that scion FR-S now has an electric motor at the same price point? Or the Prius gets an electric motor at that same price point? That's the thing with electric cars, you can make most of them insanely powerful off the line without making them into a full on sports car. I definitely drove like an idiot with our full size passenger van when I was a teenager. Hazard is when all cars have instant torque.
- sliken 5y ago
  I'd say it's safer, and unlikely to have a significantly different overall performance. Sure 0-30 mph is likely faster, full torque instantly does that. But instant torque leads to less surprises. In my WRX I did have a moment where my prediction of how things would play out was wrong, so I hustled and a second or 2 later (thanks ICE lag + turbo lag) I was in an unintentional 4 wheel slide. Ended fine (WRX is very predictable when sliding), but instant torque just makes things easier. Generally the lower the performance of a car, the longer in the future you have to predict your power needs, which makes things like on ramps, highway passing (especially on uphills), and of course getting across intersections quickly. I think one correction for the OP is that while instant torque is a huge change for the driver, it's not so for anyone outside the car. Much of the lag in the throttle, engine (waiting for RPMs to increase), torque converter, automatic to shift, driveline slack, etc is invisible to people outside. What pedestrian notices is the launch after all that happens, and said launch is much like an EV launch. Sure $50-$75k Teslas are quick, but I don't expect cheaper EVs to be particularly faster than the cheaper gas cars.
  - anonfornoreason 5y ago
    It will be interesting to see how the numbers shake out. I've just known too many drivers that can't even keep a constant throttle, so making throttle response instantaneous is problematic. Analogy: my kid has an electric dirt bike, and it has a knob to control throttle response, and a knob to control speed. He can rock top speed, but he still can't handle more than 1/3rd up the dial on throttle response. He doesn't have good enough throttle control to handle the torque, and this is a tiny little thing. I base much of my thoughts off the experience of working with him to learn throttle control (he accidentally power slides in turns all the time, which is iffy on a dirtbike for a kid), and my experience with other drivers.

by sliken 5y ago

willis936 5y ago

That's because you're normalizing by the wrong value. You should be normalizing "number of accidents per 1000 cars of the same model". https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-death-rates-by-make-and-model https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-death-rates-by-make-and-...

DennisP 5y ago
From a quick glance at that, a Chevy Malibu with a 0-60 of 7.8 seconds has a worse death rate than a Corvette, which has a time of around three seconds.
- willis936 5y ago
  The Malibu has a multi-vehicle crash death rate (MV) of 36 and single-vehicle crash death rate (SV) of 24. The Corvette is 4 and 53. Individual model comparisons aren't of much consequence (especially with such incomplete data), but trends are. If you scan the MV and SV columns in the midsize and large sections and compare it to the sports car and 2-door sections you'll see the trend I'm highlighting. The pdf linked on that page is helpful for this. https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf/55/2 https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/status-report/pdf...
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Care to explain the comically large spread between the 2wd and the 4wd Juke? Or perhaps the various Charger models? The data seams to be screaming "driver demographics" at you.

anonfornoreason 5y ago

Sure but what if that scion FR-S now has an electric motor at the same price point? Or the Prius gets an electric motor at that same price point? That's the thing with electric cars, you can make most of them insanely powerful off the line without making them into a full on sports car. I definitely drove like an idiot with our full size passenger van when I was a teenager. Hazard is when all cars have instant torque.

sliken 5y ago
I'd say it's safer, and unlikely to have a significantly different overall performance. Sure 0-30 mph is likely faster, full torque instantly does that. But instant torque leads to less surprises. In my WRX I did have a moment where my prediction of how things would play out was wrong, so I hustled and a second or 2 later (thanks ICE lag + turbo lag) I was in an unintentional 4 wheel slide. Ended fine (WRX is very predictable when sliding), but instant torque just makes things easier. Generally the lower the performance of a car, the longer in the future you have to predict your power needs, which makes things like on ramps, highway passing (especially on uphills), and of course getting across intersections quickly. I think one correction for the OP is that while instant torque is a huge change for the driver, it's not so for anyone outside the car. Much of the lag in the throttle, engine (waiting for RPMs to increase), torque converter, automatic to shift, driveline slack, etc is invisible to people outside. What pedestrian notices is the launch after all that happens, and said launch is much like an EV launch. Sure $50-$75k Teslas are quick, but I don't expect cheaper EVs to be particularly faster than the cheaper gas cars.
- anonfornoreason 5y ago
  It will be interesting to see how the numbers shake out. I've just known too many drivers that can't even keep a constant throttle, so making throttle response instantaneous is problematic. Analogy: my kid has an electric dirt bike, and it has a knob to control throttle response, and a knob to control speed. He can rock top speed, but he still can't handle more than 1/3rd up the dial on throttle response. He doesn't have good enough throttle control to handle the torque, and this is a tiny little thing. I base much of my thoughts off the experience of working with him to learn throttle control (he accidentally power slides in turns all the time, which is iffy on a dirtbike for a kid), and my experience with other drivers.