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> To save countless Ukrainian lives The solution to that is for Russians to leave or get killed.

by xdennis 5y ago

s1artibartfast 5y ago
I don't see how that is possible without countless Ukrainian lives being lost.
- gambiting 5y ago
  Well, war against Nazis wasn't won by agreeing to their demands, it was won by killing a lot of them. Yes a lot of lives were also lost in the process. I'd still rather live in the world where that was the solution, not in one where appeasement was chosen instead.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    I would prefer a world where the Nazis went marching back to Germany, and 75+ million deaths were avoided.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      Would you have agreed that Poland should have surrendered to Nazi Germany if it meant they stopped their conquest? France? How about UK? After all if you look at the terrifying number - 75 million people - any sacrifice of sovereignty is worth if it means you can prevent those deaths, no? Let's make something very clear - there was literally nothing that any country could have done to just "make the Nazis march back to Germany" other than beating them to a bloody pulp, and I don't believe there's anything realistic that can be done right now to make Russia march back to where they came from, other than showing them we won't accept such aggression in modern day Europe. One of their demands at the start was that Poland and other Baltic countries that joined NATO most recently should leave it, they would call off the invasion then. That's not a reasonable request and it will not happen, and saying "but it would prevent all these deaths in Ukraine!" Is just dishonest and frankly quite offensive to Ukrainians. I don't know how much clearer I can be.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I doubt that there was anything most WWII countries could do to make the Nazis march back, but if it were possible, while retaining their sovereignty, I Think it would have been wise to do so. I agree WWII is a poor analogy for the Ukrainian war, which is quite different, but I did not pose the question. >I don't believe there's anything realistic that can be done right now to make Russia march back to where they came from, other than showing them we won't accept such aggression in modern day Europe. This is where we fundamentally differ. As in the other thread, I think that Russia would pack up their bags and go home if Ukraine agrees to stay neutral with respect to NATO, and perhaps cede Crimea and Donbas to Russia. I gather that you think this is not the case. >One of their demands at the start was that Poland and other Baltic countries that joined NATO most recently should leave it, they would call the invasion then Not that they should leave NATO, but that the US would reduce their troops there, in exchange for Russia drawing down troops from its boarder. This was proposed as a path to lowering tensions and avoid war in Ukraine. https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-unveils-security-guarantees-says-western-response-not-encouraging-2021-12-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-unveils-security-guaran...

> To save countless Ukrainian lives The solution to that is for Russians to leave or get killed.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

I don't see how that is possible without countless Ukrainian lives being lost.

gambiting 5y ago
Well, war against Nazis wasn't won by agreeing to their demands, it was won by killing a lot of them. Yes a lot of lives were also lost in the process. I'd still rather live in the world where that was the solution, not in one where appeasement was chosen instead.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  I would prefer a world where the Nazis went marching back to Germany, and 75+ million deaths were avoided.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    Would you have agreed that Poland should have surrendered to Nazi Germany if it meant they stopped their conquest? France? How about UK? After all if you look at the terrifying number - 75 million people - any sacrifice of sovereignty is worth if it means you can prevent those deaths, no? Let's make something very clear - there was literally nothing that any country could have done to just "make the Nazis march back to Germany" other than beating them to a bloody pulp, and I don't believe there's anything realistic that can be done right now to make Russia march back to where they came from, other than showing them we won't accept such aggression in modern day Europe. One of their demands at the start was that Poland and other Baltic countries that joined NATO most recently should leave it, they would call off the invasion then. That's not a reasonable request and it will not happen, and saying "but it would prevent all these deaths in Ukraine!" Is just dishonest and frankly quite offensive to Ukrainians. I don't know how much clearer I can be.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      I doubt that there was anything most WWII countries could do to make the Nazis march back, but if it were possible, while retaining their sovereignty, I Think it would have been wise to do so. I agree WWII is a poor analogy for the Ukrainian war, which is quite different, but I did not pose the question. >I don't believe there's anything realistic that can be done right now to make Russia march back to where they came from, other than showing them we won't accept such aggression in modern day Europe. This is where we fundamentally differ. As in the other thread, I think that Russia would pack up their bags and go home if Ukraine agrees to stay neutral with respect to NATO, and perhaps cede Crimea and Donbas to Russia. I gather that you think this is not the case. >One of their demands at the start was that Poland and other Baltic countries that joined NATO most recently should leave it, they would call the invasion then Not that they should leave NATO, but that the US would reduce their troops there, in exchange for Russia drawing down troops from its boarder. This was proposed as a path to lowering tensions and avoid war in Ukraine. https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-unveils-security-guarantees-says-western-response-not-encouraging-2021-12-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-unveils-security-guaran...