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>>To save countless Ukrainian lives That sounds like something my mother says - Ukrainians should just surrender to save themselves. Forgetting that if we did

>>To save countless Ukrainian lives That sounds like something my mother says - Ukrainians should just surrender to save themselves. Forgetting that if we did that as a country at several points in our history in recent times neither one of us would be even alive. Resistance to invasion is the only way. >>The war is destroying their economy. Oh no poor Russians and their economy. You say it like they were forced to invade. As someone else said - not invading Ukraine would have cost them exactly zero rubles.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
>That sounds like something my mother says - Ukrainians should just surrender to save themselves. Forgetting that if we did that as a country at several points in our history in recent times neither one of us would be even alive. Resistance to invasion is the only way. It is a simple matter of what Ukraine wants more, saving lives or being uncompromising. >Oh no poor Russians and their economy. You say it like they were forced to invade. You missed or simply ignored the point. The point was not poor Russia, but why they would agree to a peace deal and why they can't conquer and hold Ukraine.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>It is a simple matter of what Ukraine wants more, saving lives or being uncompromising. Yes, I think people should be "uncompromising" about saving their homeland from invasion. If you excuse my comparison - your advice sounds like telling a person being raped to just stop struggling, it will end sooner that way. Ukraine is currently being invaded by Russia - they should fight with all their might to destroy the invader. I personally find the suggestion that "surrendering saves lives" offensive - if my country surrendered in WW2 many more people would have died, not less. It's magical wishful thinking that belongs in fantasy books not in the real world. >>>>I mean if richer more advanced country is going to conquer my country I am certainly not going to fight it I will re-iterate that this statement can be only said by someone with absolutely no sense of self-preservation.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    >Yes, I think people should be "uncompromising" about saving their homeland from invasion Why, If you if your homeland is saved from invasion either way? A peace deal and withdraw saves the country, and a long war followed by withdraw saves the country. >If you excuse my comparison - your advice sounds like telling a person being raped to just stop struggling, it will end sooner that way. Ukraine is currently being invaded by Russia - they should fight with all their might to destroy the invader. I'm not talking about surrender. I'm talking about peace where Russia goes home and Ukraine is an independent country. This isn't not passively being raped, it is doing something to stop the rape immediately. >if my country surrendered in WW2 many more people would have died, not less. IF that's true, then of course you shouldn't surrender! Again, the question is not of surrender, but a peace deal and Russian withdrawal. Is there no point were compromise is possible? Would you not give $1 to Russia to go home, end the war, and save countless lives?
    - gambiting 5y ago
      >>Why, If you if your homeland is saved from invasion either way? A peace deal and withdraw saves the country, and a long war followed by withdraw saves the country. My point is you don't know that and you have absolutely no way of knowing it to any degree of certainty. None of us do. The difference is that you think that's a likely scenario while I think that's the most unlikely one.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I will be the first to admit I dont know anything for certain. What I do know is: Russia has said for more than a decade it would invade Ukraine if NATO moved in. It offered to call off the invasion in January if NATO stopped arming Ukraine. And throughout the war, Russia has offered to leave if Ukraine said it will keep NATO out. People can disagree over if it is a reasonable request, but I think it is at least very clear what Russia wants. I think there is a good chance that would would leave if Ukraine accepts the peace terms they have been offering.
- xdennis 5y ago
  > It is a simple matter of what Ukraine wants more, saving lives or being uncompromising. What a trollish way of making it Ukraine's fault. "The victim wouldn't have been killed if she just didn't resist the rapist."
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
  - Markoff 5y ago
    sure, sane person will resist until certain point when it's clear further resisting will get them killed the problem with UA is they are resisting while they are more and more admitting they will agree to rape in the end anyway, but hey it's just some ordinary men dying, politicians sending them to death are safe and making video calls with standing ovations

s1artibartfast 5y ago

>That sounds like something my mother says - Ukrainians should just surrender to save themselves. Forgetting that if we did that as a country at several points in our history in recent times neither one of us would be even alive. Resistance to invasion is the only way. It is a simple matter of what Ukraine wants more, saving lives or being uncompromising. >Oh no poor Russians and their economy. You say it like they were forced to invade. You missed or simply ignored the point. The point was not poor Russia, but why they would agree to a peace deal and why they can't conquer and hold Ukraine.

gambiting 5y ago
>>It is a simple matter of what Ukraine wants more, saving lives or being uncompromising. Yes, I think people should be "uncompromising" about saving their homeland from invasion. If you excuse my comparison - your advice sounds like telling a person being raped to just stop struggling, it will end sooner that way. Ukraine is currently being invaded by Russia - they should fight with all their might to destroy the invader. I personally find the suggestion that "surrendering saves lives" offensive - if my country surrendered in WW2 many more people would have died, not less. It's magical wishful thinking that belongs in fantasy books not in the real world. >>>>I mean if richer more advanced country is going to conquer my country I am certainly not going to fight it I will re-iterate that this statement can be only said by someone with absolutely no sense of self-preservation.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  >Yes, I think people should be "uncompromising" about saving their homeland from invasion Why, If you if your homeland is saved from invasion either way? A peace deal and withdraw saves the country, and a long war followed by withdraw saves the country. >If you excuse my comparison - your advice sounds like telling a person being raped to just stop struggling, it will end sooner that way. Ukraine is currently being invaded by Russia - they should fight with all their might to destroy the invader. I'm not talking about surrender. I'm talking about peace where Russia goes home and Ukraine is an independent country. This isn't not passively being raped, it is doing something to stop the rape immediately. >if my country surrendered in WW2 many more people would have died, not less. IF that's true, then of course you shouldn't surrender! Again, the question is not of surrender, but a peace deal and Russian withdrawal. Is there no point were compromise is possible? Would you not give $1 to Russia to go home, end the war, and save countless lives?
  - gambiting 5y ago
    >>Why, If you if your homeland is saved from invasion either way? A peace deal and withdraw saves the country, and a long war followed by withdraw saves the country. My point is you don't know that and you have absolutely no way of knowing it to any degree of certainty. None of us do. The difference is that you think that's a likely scenario while I think that's the most unlikely one.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      I will be the first to admit I dont know anything for certain. What I do know is: Russia has said for more than a decade it would invade Ukraine if NATO moved in. It offered to call off the invasion in January if NATO stopped arming Ukraine. And throughout the war, Russia has offered to leave if Ukraine said it will keep NATO out. People can disagree over if it is a reasonable request, but I think it is at least very clear what Russia wants. I think there is a good chance that would would leave if Ukraine accepts the peace terms they have been offering.
xdennis 5y ago
> It is a simple matter of what Ukraine wants more, saving lives or being uncompromising. What a trollish way of making it Ukraine's fault. "The victim wouldn't have been killed if she just didn't resist the rapist."
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
- Markoff 5y ago
  sure, sane person will resist until certain point when it's clear further resisting will get them killed the problem with UA is they are resisting while they are more and more admitting they will agree to rape in the end anyway, but hey it's just some ordinary men dying, politicians sending them to death are safe and making video calls with standing ovations