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>>This is an option. Is it? In what kind of world? I don't believe for one second that this is what would happen. Russia won't pull out until they at the very

>>This is an option. Is it? In what kind of world? I don't believe for one second that this is what would happen. Russia won't pull out until they at the very least receive a written promises from Ukraine that it won't join NATO or EU, and I don't see why Ukraine should promise either thing, or that even promising that would stop Russia from taking the entire country anyway.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
>Is it? In what kind of world? I don't believe for one second that this is what would happen. Russia won't pull out until they at the very least receive a written promises from Ukraine that it won't join NATO or EU A written promise isn't an insurmountable barrier. > I don't see why Ukraine should promise either thing To save countless Ukrainian lives >stop Russia from taking the entire country anyway. Russia clearly would have a hard time taking and holding the country. The war is destroying their economy. They would be happy to get their objective and leave.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>To save countless Ukrainian lives That sounds like something my mother says - Ukrainians should just surrender to save themselves. Forgetting that if we did that as a country at several points in our history in recent times neither one of us would be even alive. Resistance to invasion is the only way. >>The war is destroying their economy. Oh no poor Russians and their economy. You say it like they were forced to invade. As someone else said - not invading Ukraine would have cost them exactly zero rubles.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    >That sounds like something my mother says - Ukrainians should just surrender to save themselves. Forgetting that if we did that as a country at several points in our history in recent times neither one of us would be even alive. Resistance to invasion is the only way. It is a simple matter of what Ukraine wants more, saving lives or being uncompromising. >Oh no poor Russians and their economy. You say it like they were forced to invade. You missed or simply ignored the point. The point was not poor Russia, but why they would agree to a peace deal and why they can't conquer and hold Ukraine.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      >>It is a simple matter of what Ukraine wants more, saving lives or being uncompromising. Yes, I think people should be "uncompromising" about saving their homeland from invasion. If you excuse my comparison - your advice sounds like telling a person being raped to just stop struggling, it will end sooner that way. Ukraine is currently being invaded by Russia - they should fight with all their might to destroy the invader. I personally find the suggestion that "surrendering saves lives" offensive - if my country surrendered in WW2 many more people would have died, not less. It's magical wishful thinking that belongs in fantasy books not in the real world. >>>>I mean if richer more advanced country is going to conquer my country I am certainly not going to fight it I will re-iterate that this statement can be only said by someone with absolutely no sense of self-preservation.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        >Yes, I think people should be "uncompromising" about saving their homeland from invasion Why, If you if your homeland is saved from invasion either way? A peace deal and withdraw saves the country, and a long war followed by withdraw saves the country. >If you excuse my comparison - your advice sounds like telling a person being raped to just stop struggling, it will end sooner that way. Ukraine is currently being invaded by Russia - they should fight with all their might to destroy the invader. I'm not talking about surrender. I'm talking about peace where Russia goes home and Ukraine is an independent country. This isn't not passively being raped, it is doing something to stop the rape immediately. >if my country surrendered in WW2 many more people would have died, not less. IF that's true, then of course you shouldn't surrender! Again, the question is not of surrender, but a peace deal and Russian withdrawal. Is there no point were compromise is possible? Would you not give $1 to Russia to go home, end the war, and save countless lives?
        gambiting 5y ago
        >>Why, If you if your homeland is saved from invasion either way? A peace deal and withdraw saves the country, and a long war followed by withdraw saves the country. My point is you don't know that and you have absolutely no way of knowing it to any degree of certainty. None of us do. The difference is that you think that's a likely scenario while I think that's the most unlikely one.
- xdennis 5y ago
  > To save countless Ukrainian lives The solution to that is for Russians to leave or get killed.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    I don't see how that is possible without countless Ukrainian lives being lost.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      Well, war against Nazis wasn't won by agreeing to their demands, it was won by killing a lot of them. Yes a lot of lives were also lost in the process. I'd still rather live in the world where that was the solution, not in one where appeasement was chosen instead.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I would prefer a world where the Nazis went marching back to Germany, and 75+ million deaths were avoided.
        gambiting 5y ago
        Would you have agreed that Poland should have surrendered to Nazi Germany if it meant they stopped their conquest? France? How about UK? After all if you look at the terrifying number - 75 million people - any sacrifice of sovereignty is worth if it means you can prevent those deaths, no? Let's make something very clear - there was literally nothing that any country could have done to just "make the Nazis march back to Germany" other than beating them to a bloody pulp, and I don't believe there's anything realistic that can be done right now to make Russia march back to where they came from, other than showing them we won't accept such aggression in modern day Europe. One of their demands at the start was that Poland and other Baltic countries that joined NATO most recently should leave it, they would call off the invasion then. That's not a reasonable request and it will not happen, and saying "but it would prevent all these deaths in Ukraine!" Is just dishonest and frankly quite offensive to Ukrainians. I don't know how much clearer I can be.
- aforwardslash 5y ago
  In the 90's, Ukraine gave their nuclear weapons stock back to Russia, and in exchange, Russia would "defend" Ukraine as a sovereign country. I'd be quite suprised if any half-brained ukrainian would take a deal like that.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

>Is it? In what kind of world? I don't believe for one second that this is what would happen. Russia won't pull out until they at the very least receive a written promises from Ukraine that it won't join NATO or EU A written promise isn't an insurmountable barrier. > I don't see why Ukraine should promise either thing To save countless Ukrainian lives >stop Russia from taking the entire country anyway. Russia clearly would have a hard time taking and holding the country. The war is destroying their economy. They would be happy to get their objective and leave.

gambiting 5y ago
>>To save countless Ukrainian lives That sounds like something my mother says - Ukrainians should just surrender to save themselves. Forgetting that if we did that as a country at several points in our history in recent times neither one of us would be even alive. Resistance to invasion is the only way. >>The war is destroying their economy. Oh no poor Russians and their economy. You say it like they were forced to invade. As someone else said - not invading Ukraine would have cost them exactly zero rubles.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  >That sounds like something my mother says - Ukrainians should just surrender to save themselves. Forgetting that if we did that as a country at several points in our history in recent times neither one of us would be even alive. Resistance to invasion is the only way. It is a simple matter of what Ukraine wants more, saving lives or being uncompromising. >Oh no poor Russians and their economy. You say it like they were forced to invade. You missed or simply ignored the point. The point was not poor Russia, but why they would agree to a peace deal and why they can't conquer and hold Ukraine.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    >>It is a simple matter of what Ukraine wants more, saving lives or being uncompromising. Yes, I think people should be "uncompromising" about saving their homeland from invasion. If you excuse my comparison - your advice sounds like telling a person being raped to just stop struggling, it will end sooner that way. Ukraine is currently being invaded by Russia - they should fight with all their might to destroy the invader. I personally find the suggestion that "surrendering saves lives" offensive - if my country surrendered in WW2 many more people would have died, not less. It's magical wishful thinking that belongs in fantasy books not in the real world. >>>>I mean if richer more advanced country is going to conquer my country I am certainly not going to fight it I will re-iterate that this statement can be only said by someone with absolutely no sense of self-preservation.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      >Yes, I think people should be "uncompromising" about saving their homeland from invasion Why, If you if your homeland is saved from invasion either way? A peace deal and withdraw saves the country, and a long war followed by withdraw saves the country. >If you excuse my comparison - your advice sounds like telling a person being raped to just stop struggling, it will end sooner that way. Ukraine is currently being invaded by Russia - they should fight with all their might to destroy the invader. I'm not talking about surrender. I'm talking about peace where Russia goes home and Ukraine is an independent country. This isn't not passively being raped, it is doing something to stop the rape immediately. >if my country surrendered in WW2 many more people would have died, not less. IF that's true, then of course you shouldn't surrender! Again, the question is not of surrender, but a peace deal and Russian withdrawal. Is there no point were compromise is possible? Would you not give $1 to Russia to go home, end the war, and save countless lives?
      - gambiting 5y ago
        >>Why, If you if your homeland is saved from invasion either way? A peace deal and withdraw saves the country, and a long war followed by withdraw saves the country. My point is you don't know that and you have absolutely no way of knowing it to any degree of certainty. None of us do. The difference is that you think that's a likely scenario while I think that's the most unlikely one.
xdennis 5y ago
> To save countless Ukrainian lives The solution to that is for Russians to leave or get killed.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  I don't see how that is possible without countless Ukrainian lives being lost.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    Well, war against Nazis wasn't won by agreeing to their demands, it was won by killing a lot of them. Yes a lot of lives were also lost in the process. I'd still rather live in the world where that was the solution, not in one where appeasement was chosen instead.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      I would prefer a world where the Nazis went marching back to Germany, and 75+ million deaths were avoided.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        Would you have agreed that Poland should have surrendered to Nazi Germany if it meant they stopped their conquest? France? How about UK? After all if you look at the terrifying number - 75 million people - any sacrifice of sovereignty is worth if it means you can prevent those deaths, no? Let's make something very clear - there was literally nothing that any country could have done to just "make the Nazis march back to Germany" other than beating them to a bloody pulp, and I don't believe there's anything realistic that can be done right now to make Russia march back to where they came from, other than showing them we won't accept such aggression in modern day Europe. One of their demands at the start was that Poland and other Baltic countries that joined NATO most recently should leave it, they would call off the invasion then. That's not a reasonable request and it will not happen, and saying "but it would prevent all these deaths in Ukraine!" Is just dishonest and frankly quite offensive to Ukrainians. I don't know how much clearer I can be.
aforwardslash 5y ago
In the 90's, Ukraine gave their nuclear weapons stock back to Russia, and in exchange, Russia would "defend" Ukraine as a sovereign country. I'd be quite suprised if any half-brained ukrainian would take a deal like that.