2 ms·

I don't think that this is predatory; even if they're charging for this, it's useful to get different perspectives on teaching. We're all a bit different, some

I don't think that this is predatory; even if they're charging for this, it's useful to get different perspectives on teaching. We're all a bit different, sometimes `vimtutor` isn't going to stick. I mean, taking this logic to its extreme, should universities by completely abolished, since most of the information available in universities is also available online for free?

johncoltrane 5y ago
> I mean, taking this logic to its extreme, should universities by completely abolished, since most of the information available in universities is also available online for free? That would be a different logic.
- tombert 5y ago
  How though? All this person is offering is a different tutorial for Vim, and they might eventually charge money for it. Yes, the information is available for free via Vimtutor (or a million other online tutorials), but that doesn't make a paid tutorial predatory, any more than any other paid information tutorial.
  - johncoltrane 5y ago
    It's not a different tutorial. It's a gigantic, messy, incomplete reference card. And yes, it is predatory, just like every other ebook/app/whatever based on the misconception that Vim is hard to learn.
    - tombert 5y ago
      I've been using Vim as my full time editor for a decade (well Neovim for the last five years), so believe me when I say this: Vim is hard to learn. It's not a misconception. Modal editing never really took off, so people's exposure to text editing prior to learning Vim is generally something like MSOffice, which is not modal. Maybe you're some hypergenius who picked up Vim in an afternoon, but I know several people who I recommended "just go through Vimtutor" and it didn't stick for them.
      - johncoltrane 5y ago
        12 years, here, 10 of them spent debunking such nonsense and reverting all the silly misconceptions people get from tweets/videos/posts/etc. Vim is _not_ hard to learn. It's more than a misconception, at this point, it's a myth. The learning material is free, easy to follow, and goes very progressively from nothing to advanced without even assuming computer proficiency. The only requirements are a) Vim, b) high school level ESL, c) time. > Modal editing never really took off, so people's exposure to text editing prior to learning Vim is generally something like MSOffice, which is not modal. Well, modal editing is just some $NEW_THING you must learn to do $ACTIVITY efficiently. Just like a new framework or ice skating. Not having been exposed to it prior to your first time is not a handicap because no one has. Every budding vimmer is literally equal before modal editing. > Maybe you're some hypergenius who picked up Vim in an afternoon It took me 4 months to know enough of Vim and be comfortable enough to ditch my previous editor for good. > but I know several people who I recommended "just go through Vimtutor" and it didn't stick for them. Well, that's a dumb advice so no surprise, here: you rigged them for failure and they failed. vimtutor only covers the basics needed for adding a line to /etc/hosts or write a commit message so no wonder why they bailed out if they believed they were going to be wizards after a 30 minutes tutorial. The real learning starts at :help user-manual. Besides, giving up after vimtutor is perfectly OK. Vim is just one editor among many and it is not for everyone. Learning Vim is _not_ hard. What _is_ hard is using it efficiently without learning it, which makes people take all kinds of silly shortcuts and spread all kinds of silly ideas.
        tombert 5y ago
        > It took me 4 months to know enough of Vim and be comfortable enough to ditch my previous editor for good. OK, but you can be productive with Eclipse or Jetbrains (or even Emacs) in an afternoon. This implies to me that they're easier. For me, it also took a few months to get to the point where I felt comfortable getting rid of Emacs and use Vim for everything, but it only took me a few days to be productive with Emacs initially. The swap was worth it, but it was a steep learning curve.
        johncoltrane 5y ago

johncoltrane 5y ago

> I mean, taking this logic to its extreme, should universities by completely abolished, since most of the information available in universities is also available online for free? That would be a different logic.

tombert 5y ago
How though? All this person is offering is a different tutorial for Vim, and they might eventually charge money for it. Yes, the information is available for free via Vimtutor (or a million other online tutorials), but that doesn't make a paid tutorial predatory, any more than any other paid information tutorial.
- johncoltrane 5y ago
  It's not a different tutorial. It's a gigantic, messy, incomplete reference card. And yes, it is predatory, just like every other ebook/app/whatever based on the misconception that Vim is hard to learn.
  - tombert 5y ago
    I've been using Vim as my full time editor for a decade (well Neovim for the last five years), so believe me when I say this: Vim is hard to learn. It's not a misconception. Modal editing never really took off, so people's exposure to text editing prior to learning Vim is generally something like MSOffice, which is not modal. Maybe you're some hypergenius who picked up Vim in an afternoon, but I know several people who I recommended "just go through Vimtutor" and it didn't stick for them.
    - johncoltrane 5y ago
      12 years, here, 10 of them spent debunking such nonsense and reverting all the silly misconceptions people get from tweets/videos/posts/etc. Vim is _not_ hard to learn. It's more than a misconception, at this point, it's a myth. The learning material is free, easy to follow, and goes very progressively from nothing to advanced without even assuming computer proficiency. The only requirements are a) Vim, b) high school level ESL, c) time. > Modal editing never really took off, so people's exposure to text editing prior to learning Vim is generally something like MSOffice, which is not modal. Well, modal editing is just some $NEW_THING you must learn to do $ACTIVITY efficiently. Just like a new framework or ice skating. Not having been exposed to it prior to your first time is not a handicap because no one has. Every budding vimmer is literally equal before modal editing. > Maybe you're some hypergenius who picked up Vim in an afternoon It took me 4 months to know enough of Vim and be comfortable enough to ditch my previous editor for good. > but I know several people who I recommended "just go through Vimtutor" and it didn't stick for them. Well, that's a dumb advice so no surprise, here: you rigged them for failure and they failed. vimtutor only covers the basics needed for adding a line to /etc/hosts or write a commit message so no wonder why they bailed out if they believed they were going to be wizards after a 30 minutes tutorial. The real learning starts at :help user-manual. Besides, giving up after vimtutor is perfectly OK. Vim is just one editor among many and it is not for everyone. Learning Vim is _not_ hard. What _is_ hard is using it efficiently without learning it, which makes people take all kinds of silly shortcuts and spread all kinds of silly ideas.
      - tombert 5y ago
        > It took me 4 months to know enough of Vim and be comfortable enough to ditch my previous editor for good. OK, but you can be productive with Eclipse or Jetbrains (or even Emacs) in an afternoon. This implies to me that they're easier. For me, it also took a few months to get to the point where I felt comfortable getting rid of Emacs and use Vim for everything, but it only took me a few days to be productive with Emacs initially. The swap was worth it, but it was a steep learning curve.
        johncoltrane 5y ago