5 ms·

Actual opera fans are frothing at the mouth right now at the suggestion that Cats is opera. But this idea that opera is stuffy high culture is the same mistake

by mbg721 5y ago

Actual opera fans are frothing at the mouth right now at the suggestion that Cats is opera. But this idea that opera is stuffy high culture is the same mistake people make with Shakespeare--it's pop culture, just removed from its context. Imagine upper-class twits a century from now screening an Adam Sandler movie.

User23 5y ago
That’s why Opera has so many long boring bits. Attendees weren’t expected to pay attention as if it were a High Mass. It was a social event, a place to see and be seen, as well as trade gossip and so on. The performance itself was somewhat analogous to the TV on in the background at a bar.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  How would that work with the arrangement of having rows of seats all facing the show? At a modern theater there's hardly any way to talk to anybody.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Sure, going to either an opera or the latest Marvel blockbuster is often a social event to some degree. But the idea that the entertainment itself is just background noise like a few musicians at a cocktail party is just bizarre.
- passerby1 5y ago
  When did it become trendy to parade one's illiteracy and narrow-mindedness?
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Was it ever not?
rory 5y ago
> But this idea that opera is stuffy high culture is the same mistake people make with Shakespeare These things ARE high culture today. Whether or not they were high culture when they were first produced doesn't change that in the slightest.
- mbg721 5y ago
  That's true, but it just highlights how bizarre and arbitrary high-culture is. I don't know how to say "Hey everybody, we're all going to get laid!" in Italian while preserving Rodney Dangerfield's voice.
  - rory 5y ago
    Absolutely. The arbitrariness doesn't only apply to performance, either. Fancy people like old stuff. Jackson Pollock. Dubliners.
tombert 5y ago
Isn't what makes Shakespeare "high culture" is its ability to stand the test of time? I'm sure there were plenty of mediocre or terrible plays from other writers at the time that no one cares about now, and are thus not "high culture". Shakespeare's stuff has been consistently read/performed for centuries, indicating that there might be something a bit more to it than the average play. Pop culture doesn't necessarily imply not high culture. I could be wrong obviously, but I would be extremely surprised if Adam Sandler movies have centuries of longevity to them; I think even people who like his movies will acknowledge that they're not spectacular films. Of course the "test of time" test isn't always an indicator of quality. There are plenty of old books that I had to read that I thought were terrible, and moreover there are plenty of modern music that I think is fantastic that no one else will really care about.
- JackFr 5y ago
  > Of course the "test of time" test isn't always an indicator of quality. Today's superhero movies = yesterday's westerns. "I can't believe they made so many of these and just how bad most of them are."
- jancsika 5y ago
  > I'm sure there were plenty of mediocre or terrible plays from other writers at the time that no one cares about now, and are thus not "high culture". I don't think that is historically accurate. From what I've read "high" vs. "low" culture changes over time, very often based on aesthetics. Brahms wrote both high and low art by the late 19th-century audience's standards. Today it's all just Brahms, who is a "classical composer", hence all "high art." Most importantly, there is no reason at all to believe that it cannot change again in the future. E.g., Brahms goes viral and gets treated as some kind of KPop sensation. Then we get some young punk doing cosplay as a steampunk Musikwissenschaftler claiming that Hungarian Dance No. 5 no longer slaps as high as it used to.
zeruch 5y ago
High culture vs low culture has always been at least partly arbitrary. I'm not an Opera fan in general, but used to love that there was a cafe in town that once a month hosted 'opera' night, where amateur and pro opera singers (some from the SJ and SF opera camps) to sing whatever they want. Sometimes you'd get someone singing pop tunes as arias, sometimes you'd see legit arias sung in full costume, sometimes just the local belting out of Carmen in sweatpants. It felt delightfully local, accessible, and devoid of highbrow/lowbrow nonsense.

by mbg721 5y ago

User23 5y ago

That’s why Opera has so many long boring bits. Attendees weren’t expected to pay attention as if it were a High Mass. It was a social event, a place to see and be seen, as well as trade gossip and so on. The performance itself was somewhat analogous to the TV on in the background at a bar.

whatshisface 5y ago
How would that work with the arrangement of having rows of seats all facing the show? At a modern theater there's hardly any way to talk to anybody.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Sure, going to either an opera or the latest Marvel blockbuster is often a social event to some degree. But the idea that the entertainment itself is just background noise like a few musicians at a cocktail party is just bizarre.
passerby1 5y ago
When did it become trendy to parade one's illiteracy and narrow-mindedness?
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Was it ever not?

rory 5y ago

> But this idea that opera is stuffy high culture is the same mistake people make with Shakespeare These things ARE high culture today. Whether or not they were high culture when they were first produced doesn't change that in the slightest.

mbg721 5y ago
That's true, but it just highlights how bizarre and arbitrary high-culture is. I don't know how to say "Hey everybody, we're all going to get laid!" in Italian while preserving Rodney Dangerfield's voice.
- rory 5y ago
  Absolutely. The arbitrariness doesn't only apply to performance, either. Fancy people like old stuff. Jackson Pollock. Dubliners.

tombert 5y ago

Isn't what makes Shakespeare "high culture" is its ability to stand the test of time? I'm sure there were plenty of mediocre or terrible plays from other writers at the time that no one cares about now, and are thus not "high culture". Shakespeare's stuff has been consistently read/performed for centuries, indicating that there might be something a bit more to it than the average play. Pop culture doesn't necessarily imply not high culture. I could be wrong obviously, but I would be extremely surprised if Adam Sandler movies have centuries of longevity to them; I think even people who like his movies will acknowledge that they're not spectacular films. Of course the "test of time" test isn't always an indicator of quality. There are plenty of old books that I had to read that I thought were terrible, and moreover there are plenty of modern music that I think is fantastic that no one else will really care about.

JackFr 5y ago
> Of course the "test of time" test isn't always an indicator of quality. Today's superhero movies = yesterday's westerns. "I can't believe they made so many of these and just how bad most of them are."
jancsika 5y ago
> I'm sure there were plenty of mediocre or terrible plays from other writers at the time that no one cares about now, and are thus not "high culture". I don't think that is historically accurate. From what I've read "high" vs. "low" culture changes over time, very often based on aesthetics. Brahms wrote both high and low art by the late 19th-century audience's standards. Today it's all just Brahms, who is a "classical composer", hence all "high art." Most importantly, there is no reason at all to believe that it cannot change again in the future. E.g., Brahms goes viral and gets treated as some kind of KPop sensation. Then we get some young punk doing cosplay as a steampunk Musikwissenschaftler claiming that Hungarian Dance No. 5 no longer slaps as high as it used to.

zeruch 5y ago

High culture vs low culture has always been at least partly arbitrary. I'm not an Opera fan in general, but used to love that there was a cafe in town that once a month hosted 'opera' night, where amateur and pro opera singers (some from the SJ and SF opera camps) to sing whatever they want. Sometimes you'd get someone singing pop tunes as arias, sometimes you'd see legit arias sung in full costume, sometimes just the local belting out of Carmen in sweatpants. It felt delightfully local, accessible, and devoid of highbrow/lowbrow nonsense.