6 ms·

If I have an IP address I can host anything and anyone anywhere on the internet can access it right now. There's no company controlled centralized database I h

If I have an IP address I can host anything and anyone anywhere on the internet can access it right now. There's no company controlled centralized database I have to get permission from to host an apache server with cat photos for example. Isn't this problem already solved?

abiro 5y ago
The interesting part is state transitions (mutations). How would your Apache server coordinate mutations to your cat database with other servers when you need to enforce invariants like the maximum number of kittens a cat can have per year?
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  I... don't? I'm hosting cat photos for friends to view. There are no invariants. There are no rules. It's purely content I'm posting for other people to consume. It's no different than if I printed photos and mailed them to all the people.
  - abiro 5y ago
    Then you're talking about a different problem.
    - bilekas 5y ago
      It sounds like you're offering a solution for a non-problem.
      - abiro 5y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30683308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30683308
- ohgodplsno 5y ago
  This is not a problem anyone has ever had. The entire world is running on either no coordinated mutations, or batched mutations that are spreading over time. If you're found not respecting the mutations that my Apache server has done, the only thing that happens is that you get banned or fined. Cryptobros see the world as absolutely unable of trust, when it's ran for millenia on it.
  - abiro 5y ago
    If you’re running Postgres you have this problem and you gave it a centralized solution.
    - lpcvoid 5y ago
      I can run Postgres with no cryptobro crap required. Huge advantage. If people don't want to trust my instance, then we can start signing blobs so my instance only shovels dumb data around that anybody can verify being authentic. If relationships are required to be verifiable, we can build a PKI.
      - abiro 5y ago
        If you could build PKI in a decentralized, privacy preserving manner for all internet users that’d be huge. So far no-one succeeded.
  - legutierr 5y ago
    > The entire world is running on either no coordinated mutations, or batched mutations that are spreading over time. Every financial transaction that requires settlement between institutions is a “coordinated mutation.” And while it is true that financial transactions are often synced between institutions via a “batched mutation” approach (especially when coordinating settlement), the delay that batched settlement represents, and the complexity that it introduces to the overall system, is extremely costly. This is one reason why blockchains have the potential to be extremely valuable—both from a utilitarian point of view as well as from a financial point of view. Imagine if you could get rid of batched settlement between institutions, because you just didn’t need to do it anymore. What would that be worth?
legutierr 5y ago
If you want to share control of that data with me—and say that the data represents something valuable (or is itself valuable somehow) and we don’t really trust each other not to tamper with it—then the classic “single server hosting data on the internet” doesn’t really do the trick. If the number of people needing to collaborate is arbitrarily large, and includes people who don’t know each other and don’t trust each other, then the only option for storing and updating shared state in a tamperproof and durable way is to use a consensus-replicated blockchain.
- 411111111111111 5y ago
  Or just use certificate signing.
  - legutierr 5y ago
    It’s notable that all blockchain systems use cryptographic signatures to authenticate state transitions. But how do cryptographic signatures protect you from surreptitious deletions? On their own, they do not. They are a necessary, but insufficient part of the solution.
- nicbou 5y ago
  Does that happen a lot?
  - legutierr 5y ago
    Does what happen a lot? People who might not know or trust each other needing to collaborate in updating and maintaining some kind of shared database? Yeah, it happens every day, everywhere, all the time. In fact, it is exactly what you and I are doing right now. In our case, though, we happen to trust Y Combinator to mediate our exchange. If our exchange were hosted on a blockchain, we wouldn't need to rely on Y Combinator to keep track of the upvotes and the downvotes, and to preserve our comments in their original form.
    - karmakurtisaani 5y ago

abiro 5y ago

The interesting part is state transitions (mutations). How would your Apache server coordinate mutations to your cat database with other servers when you need to enforce invariants like the maximum number of kittens a cat can have per year?

qbasic_forever 5y ago
I... don't? I'm hosting cat photos for friends to view. There are no invariants. There are no rules. It's purely content I'm posting for other people to consume. It's no different than if I printed photos and mailed them to all the people.
- abiro 5y ago
  Then you're talking about a different problem.
  - bilekas 5y ago
    It sounds like you're offering a solution for a non-problem.
    - abiro 5y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30683308 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30683308
ohgodplsno 5y ago
This is not a problem anyone has ever had. The entire world is running on either no coordinated mutations, or batched mutations that are spreading over time. If you're found not respecting the mutations that my Apache server has done, the only thing that happens is that you get banned or fined. Cryptobros see the world as absolutely unable of trust, when it's ran for millenia on it.
- abiro 5y ago
  If you’re running Postgres you have this problem and you gave it a centralized solution.
  - lpcvoid 5y ago
    I can run Postgres with no cryptobro crap required. Huge advantage. If people don't want to trust my instance, then we can start signing blobs so my instance only shovels dumb data around that anybody can verify being authentic. If relationships are required to be verifiable, we can build a PKI.
    - abiro 5y ago
      If you could build PKI in a decentralized, privacy preserving manner for all internet users that’d be huge. So far no-one succeeded.
- legutierr 5y ago
  > The entire world is running on either no coordinated mutations, or batched mutations that are spreading over time. Every financial transaction that requires settlement between institutions is a “coordinated mutation.” And while it is true that financial transactions are often synced between institutions via a “batched mutation” approach (especially when coordinating settlement), the delay that batched settlement represents, and the complexity that it introduces to the overall system, is extremely costly. This is one reason why blockchains have the potential to be extremely valuable—both from a utilitarian point of view as well as from a financial point of view. Imagine if you could get rid of batched settlement between institutions, because you just didn’t need to do it anymore. What would that be worth?

legutierr 5y ago

If you want to share control of that data with me—and say that the data represents something valuable (or is itself valuable somehow) and we don’t really trust each other not to tamper with it—then the classic “single server hosting data on the internet” doesn’t really do the trick. If the number of people needing to collaborate is arbitrarily large, and includes people who don’t know each other and don’t trust each other, then the only option for storing and updating shared state in a tamperproof and durable way is to use a consensus-replicated blockchain.

411111111111111 5y ago
Or just use certificate signing.
- legutierr 5y ago
  It’s notable that all blockchain systems use cryptographic signatures to authenticate state transitions. But how do cryptographic signatures protect you from surreptitious deletions? On their own, they do not. They are a necessary, but insufficient part of the solution.
nicbou 5y ago
Does that happen a lot?
- legutierr 5y ago
  Does what happen a lot? People who might not know or trust each other needing to collaborate in updating and maintaining some kind of shared database? Yeah, it happens every day, everywhere, all the time. In fact, it is exactly what you and I are doing right now. In our case, though, we happen to trust Y Combinator to mediate our exchange. If our exchange were hosted on a blockchain, we wouldn't need to rely on Y Combinator to keep track of the upvotes and the downvotes, and to preserve our comments in their original form.
  - karmakurtisaani 5y ago