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E15 to 20 is gonna be ultra rough on a lot of engines! My car would perform extremely poorly on it, and the ethanol is lower energy density and expensive to pr

E15 to 20 is gonna be ultra rough on a lot of engines! My car would perform extremely poorly on it, and the ethanol is lower energy density and expensive to produce. The US is finding out the ethanol program isn't really a gain. Not sure of the loss and hopefully it's minor.

dragontamer 5y ago
> My car would perform extremely poorly on it Ethanol has a higher octane rating. IIRC, the main issue with Ethanol is corrosion, not performance. Your _engine_ will love the stuff. The tank / seals / gaskets on the other hand... that's the problem. > and the ethanol is lower energy density and expensive to produce. So? Its an alternative fuel. If gasoline becomes $10 a gallon, then we use more Ethanol. The idea is to have a plan for the incoming oil shock. If gasoline becomes more expensive, then ethanol almost certainly will become a better idea, especially because (when mixed with Gasoline), most car engines can use it.
- ddingus 5y ago
  From the google: Ethanol contains less energy per gallon than gasoline, to varying degrees, depending on the volume percentage of ethanol in the blend. Denatured ethanol (98% ethanol) contains about 30% less energy than gasoline per gallon.
- ddingus 5y ago
  As alternative sure. But we won't be making a performance argument as well. And it is hard on top soil. Maybe easier if we use things other than corn. I rebutted the performance claims, and did so based on energy density and engine difficulty. Many will be dealing with those two things, with the latter being more important. There is no need to oversell. People will deal with the fuel because they need to. Engines won't love the stuff, unless their ECMs are setup to deal with the lower performance per unit of fuel. Then they will work, but not optimally. Drivers will notice their car is not as peppy. Source: I have driven on high percentage ethanol. One of my vehicles does OK. The fuel is not recommended for the other one. It may need an additive.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    > I rebutted the performance claims, and did so based on energy density and engine difficulty. Many will be dealing with those two things, with the latter being more important. Literally race cars use Ethanol because it has 100+ Octane (depending on the mixture level with gasoline). Its an incredible octane booster and improves performance of the fuel. The main issue is that most engines aren't designed to have the significantly higher compression that ethanol blends have. But if we're talking raw performance, its actually a good fuel. E85 in particular is rated ~100 octane to ~105 octane. ---------- Yes, ethanol may require more fuel per cycle, but almost all computers built in the last two decades have those computers that can compensate for it. In any case, there's a large number of "FlexFuel" vehicles out there: Ford Focus, Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, F150, etc. etc. These vehicles don't only take E15 blends, but are designed to safely run E85 blends. Right there is an 89% reduction on gasoline usage (from E10 to E85). Mostly Ford and GM vehicles yes. But there's plenty of those vehicles around. I bet that most people who drive these cars don't even realize that they have an 89% reduction on gasoline fuel available. The issue is that E85 costs more. Its cheaper per-gallon, but its more expensive per mile because of that energy density thing.
    - ddingus 5y ago
      Yeah and the race car people don't care about a lot of things people who use and build ordinary cars do. In a normal car it's not going to perform as well. Which goes back to we're not going to be making a performance argument. People don't drive race cars. Regarding your comments about the flex fuel cars, yeah they will do well on the fuel. I think it's Brazil that runs mostly that type of fuel. Personally, given that we don't use corn which is terrible on the planet and inefficient, using that kind of fuel is a really good idea and has a number of advantages so don't get me wrong. At this point in time, a lot of drivers and vehicles will be negatively impacted.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        > At this point in time, a lot of drivers and vehicles will be negatively impacted. The impact is inevitable. But now is the time to plan for it. USA has huge strategic reserves, but they only will last for a few months at the most, and we probably want to keep some reserves open in case things get worse. The immediate concern is securing a fuel from a "friendly" nation right now. With ~7% of USA's oil coming from Russia and that 7% about to disappear from our markets, we need to come up with an alternative and quickly. Ethanol is one of the most reasonable, short-term alternatives I can think of. Corn is controversial, but USDA research and Department Of Energy / Argonne National Labs research is clearly in favor of corn-ethanol (with switchgrass / advanced biofuels even better). (A lot of the controversies around corn ethanol are from smaller researchers, no big research group I can see frankly)
- ddingus 5y ago
  My basic plan will be same as last time, and that is to use a lot less fuel.

dragontamer 5y ago

> My car would perform extremely poorly on it Ethanol has a higher octane rating. IIRC, the main issue with Ethanol is corrosion, not performance. Your _engine_ will love the stuff. The tank / seals / gaskets on the other hand... that's the problem. > and the ethanol is lower energy density and expensive to produce. So? Its an alternative fuel. If gasoline becomes $10 a gallon, then we use more Ethanol. The idea is to have a plan for the incoming oil shock. If gasoline becomes more expensive, then ethanol almost certainly will become a better idea, especially because (when mixed with Gasoline), most car engines can use it.

ddingus 5y ago
From the google: Ethanol contains less energy per gallon than gasoline, to varying degrees, depending on the volume percentage of ethanol in the blend. Denatured ethanol (98% ethanol) contains about 30% less energy than gasoline per gallon.
ddingus 5y ago
As alternative sure. But we won't be making a performance argument as well. And it is hard on top soil. Maybe easier if we use things other than corn. I rebutted the performance claims, and did so based on energy density and engine difficulty. Many will be dealing with those two things, with the latter being more important. There is no need to oversell. People will deal with the fuel because they need to. Engines won't love the stuff, unless their ECMs are setup to deal with the lower performance per unit of fuel. Then they will work, but not optimally. Drivers will notice their car is not as peppy. Source: I have driven on high percentage ethanol. One of my vehicles does OK. The fuel is not recommended for the other one. It may need an additive.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  > I rebutted the performance claims, and did so based on energy density and engine difficulty. Many will be dealing with those two things, with the latter being more important. Literally race cars use Ethanol because it has 100+ Octane (depending on the mixture level with gasoline). Its an incredible octane booster and improves performance of the fuel. The main issue is that most engines aren't designed to have the significantly higher compression that ethanol blends have. But if we're talking raw performance, its actually a good fuel. E85 in particular is rated ~100 octane to ~105 octane. ---------- Yes, ethanol may require more fuel per cycle, but almost all computers built in the last two decades have those computers that can compensate for it. In any case, there's a large number of "FlexFuel" vehicles out there: Ford Focus, Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, F150, etc. etc. These vehicles don't only take E15 blends, but are designed to safely run E85 blends. Right there is an 89% reduction on gasoline usage (from E10 to E85). Mostly Ford and GM vehicles yes. But there's plenty of those vehicles around. I bet that most people who drive these cars don't even realize that they have an 89% reduction on gasoline fuel available. The issue is that E85 costs more. Its cheaper per-gallon, but its more expensive per mile because of that energy density thing.
  - ddingus 5y ago
    Yeah and the race car people don't care about a lot of things people who use and build ordinary cars do. In a normal car it's not going to perform as well. Which goes back to we're not going to be making a performance argument. People don't drive race cars. Regarding your comments about the flex fuel cars, yeah they will do well on the fuel. I think it's Brazil that runs mostly that type of fuel. Personally, given that we don't use corn which is terrible on the planet and inefficient, using that kind of fuel is a really good idea and has a number of advantages so don't get me wrong. At this point in time, a lot of drivers and vehicles will be negatively impacted.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      > At this point in time, a lot of drivers and vehicles will be negatively impacted. The impact is inevitable. But now is the time to plan for it. USA has huge strategic reserves, but they only will last for a few months at the most, and we probably want to keep some reserves open in case things get worse. The immediate concern is securing a fuel from a "friendly" nation right now. With ~7% of USA's oil coming from Russia and that 7% about to disappear from our markets, we need to come up with an alternative and quickly. Ethanol is one of the most reasonable, short-term alternatives I can think of. Corn is controversial, but USDA research and Department Of Energy / Argonne National Labs research is clearly in favor of corn-ethanol (with switchgrass / advanced biofuels even better). (A lot of the controversies around corn ethanol are from smaller researchers, no big research group I can see frankly)
ddingus 5y ago
My basic plan will be same as last time, and that is to use a lot less fuel.