4 ms·

> there's a bus route for all corners in the USA I'm sorry, but this seems plainly counterfactual in view of the low-density, automobile-exclusive nature of mu

> there's a bus route for all corners in the USA I'm sorry, but this seems plainly counterfactual in view of the low-density, automobile-exclusive nature of much of suburban and rural Middle America. There's literally not a bus route in most of the USA, let alone "all corners".

dragontamer 5y ago
Fortunately, rural Middle America doesn't have huge amounts of traffic. So a bus isn't needed in those locations either. If you have a bus route available, really consider it. I don't think this oil-crisis is avoidable. Even if Russia retreats from Ukraine tomorrow, the long-term effects of these sanctions will propagate through the market.
- Fatnino 5y ago
  My daily commute is from Palo Alto to Cupertino. I'd say that does not count as "rural middle America". Just now I opened Google maps to find me a way to work using public transit. As a baseline, it takes me 16 minutes in my car. Option 1) drive 11 minutes to the train station. Ride the train 3 stops, get off at mountain view and get a lyft for 8 minutes. Total travel time: 47 minutes. (note this is basically all car, so a non starter in reducing gasoline use) Option 2) basically the same thing but replace the train with the 22 bus instead. Total travel time: 57 minutes. (again, practically all car) Option 3..n) walk 19 minutes to catch the 21 bus, ride to mountain view, switch to the 51, ride to practically the doorstep at work. Total travel time: 100+ minutes. And I arrive an hour early. In summary, VTA has failed me, and I'd like to say most of the people in the north part of Santa Clara county. But the reality is, many of them actually like it this way so it's harder for the rifraff from San Jose to get here. We still pay the same taxes into the system, we just don't have it up here.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Lets not have perfect be the enemy of good here. > Option 3..n) walk 19 minutes to catch the 21 bus, ride to mountain view, switch to the 51, ride to practically the doorstep at work. Total travel time: 100+ minutes. And I arrive an hour early. How far away is the drive to the Mountain View / 51 bus? Is it an option to drive to that bus, then bus to the doorstep of your work? If gasoline reaches $6, $7, $8, $9 or $10/gallon, would it be economical for you to use this route? Is there a convenient parking lot where you can park all-day at reasonable costs (or for free)?
    - Fatnino 5y ago
      It's 11 minutes to Mountain View by car. There is of course no free parking because it's downtown. Then it's an additional 25 minutes on the 51 bus. This isn't a situation where good is being passed up waiting for perfect. It's utterly terrible being passed up for bad but workable. This plan saves me a fraction of a gallon. The cost of parking alone already eats many times the savings. And this still doesn't cover what 20 minutes of my time is worth. Admittedly, time spent as a passenger is better spent than as a driver.
      - blitzar 5y ago
        Workplace (plus immediate neighbour offices) ride share / carpool can be the only real winner there. Someone should build an app for it.
        lobocinza 5y ago
        Waze
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        Surely there's something to do downtown in your daily life that can spread out the costs though? I don't know your neighborhood, but even just a Trader's Joe (or other grocery store) near the parking spot would integrate your work-day into a grocery-run, or other such regular activity. If this isn't a regular enough occurance, its still a benefit to do it once or twice a week, as you need. If not all the time, then you start thinking about how you can use mass transit at least some of the time. Home -> Mall -> Work -> Mall -> Buy Groceries -> Home. Or maybe gym activities, or whatnot. I don't know what exists in that commercial area, but in my experience, there tend to be lots of things to do around bus stops.
        Fatnino 5y ago
        You're really grasping at straws here. OK, let's look at what there is to do in downtown Mountain View https://maps.app.goo.gl/JizDZA8K8tdxo6mU7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/JizDZA8K8tdxo6mU7 This pin is to the transit center. To the south southwest is the business district. Nearly ALL of it is restaurants and bars. It's honestly impressive how 4 city blocks are basically one giant food court. But I thought the point of this was to save money, not spend way too much eating out every night. There is a CVS a few blocks away, but let's be honest, I'm going to do my shopping at my local store in Palo Alto a mere 10 minute walk from my house. I'm not planning an excursion to DTMV to shop at the one store. As for the rest of the time, the main thing I like to do for fun/excersize is go hiking in the hills around here. The number of trailheads that have transit to them is so vanishingly small it might as well not exist.
  - runarberg 5y ago
    People won’t like it this way for very long once the gas prices are up 30%. At which point California and the Federal government will have to step in and rectify this situation. The easiest solution would be to mandate worker pickups and to massively increase the bus network and frequency. The Bay area certainly has the density to justify massive bus subsidies if it means saving fuel during an energy crisis.
Retric 5y ago
Oddly enough School Busses do cover almost every address in the US, which demonstrates such a network isn’t inherently difficult to build. Rather automobiles are just really convenient in low density areas.
- abalashov 5y ago
  For two trips a day; they're effectively charter buses. And a lot of them take very long, circuitous journeys; my kid's bus comes at 6:45 AM, long before school starts! Now make them run every 10-15 minutes so anyone can get anywhere any time, also add a bunch of transfer points and intermodal nodes...
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    > Now make them run every 10-15 minutes so anyone can get anywhere any time, also add a bunch of transfer points and intermodal nodes... Lets start with the basics. To-and-from work, which is likely the #1 use of people's gasoline.
    - FeepingCreature 5y ago
      This creates an interesting work model: drive to work via company bus in the morning, drive home via company bus in the evening, just leave your laptop on the bus. Travel time counts as work time. Same route twice a day, so everybody works the same length.
    - abalashov 5y ago
      That's the whole point. School is just one destination in which all the school buses converge...
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        My high-school only had 2000 students, and elementary/middle school had only a fraction of that. Surely a lot of us work on campuses / office complexes that have more than 2000 office workers? If we have bus systems that can effectively serve ~500 person elementary schools or ~300 person elementary schools, surely we can serve a 5000-person office complex with some kind of mass-transit option?
idontwantthis 5y ago
I thought he meant long distance buses. https://www.greyhound.com/-/media/greyhound/images/discover/2019-greyhound-network-map.pdf https://www.greyhound.com/-/media/greyhound/images/discover/... Can get to basically every metro area by bus in America. From there you'd need to get someone to drive you to your final destination.

dragontamer 5y ago

Fortunately, rural Middle America doesn't have huge amounts of traffic. So a bus isn't needed in those locations either. If you have a bus route available, really consider it. I don't think this oil-crisis is avoidable. Even if Russia retreats from Ukraine tomorrow, the long-term effects of these sanctions will propagate through the market.

Fatnino 5y ago
My daily commute is from Palo Alto to Cupertino. I'd say that does not count as "rural middle America". Just now I opened Google maps to find me a way to work using public transit. As a baseline, it takes me 16 minutes in my car. Option 1) drive 11 minutes to the train station. Ride the train 3 stops, get off at mountain view and get a lyft for 8 minutes. Total travel time: 47 minutes. (note this is basically all car, so a non starter in reducing gasoline use) Option 2) basically the same thing but replace the train with the 22 bus instead. Total travel time: 57 minutes. (again, practically all car) Option 3..n) walk 19 minutes to catch the 21 bus, ride to mountain view, switch to the 51, ride to practically the doorstep at work. Total travel time: 100+ minutes. And I arrive an hour early. In summary, VTA has failed me, and I'd like to say most of the people in the north part of Santa Clara county. But the reality is, many of them actually like it this way so it's harder for the rifraff from San Jose to get here. We still pay the same taxes into the system, we just don't have it up here.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Lets not have perfect be the enemy of good here. > Option 3..n) walk 19 minutes to catch the 21 bus, ride to mountain view, switch to the 51, ride to practically the doorstep at work. Total travel time: 100+ minutes. And I arrive an hour early. How far away is the drive to the Mountain View / 51 bus? Is it an option to drive to that bus, then bus to the doorstep of your work? If gasoline reaches $6, $7, $8, $9 or $10/gallon, would it be economical for you to use this route? Is there a convenient parking lot where you can park all-day at reasonable costs (or for free)?
  - Fatnino 5y ago
    It's 11 minutes to Mountain View by car. There is of course no free parking because it's downtown. Then it's an additional 25 minutes on the 51 bus. This isn't a situation where good is being passed up waiting for perfect. It's utterly terrible being passed up for bad but workable. This plan saves me a fraction of a gallon. The cost of parking alone already eats many times the savings. And this still doesn't cover what 20 minutes of my time is worth. Admittedly, time spent as a passenger is better spent than as a driver.
    - blitzar 5y ago
      Workplace (plus immediate neighbour offices) ride share / carpool can be the only real winner there. Someone should build an app for it.
      - lobocinza 5y ago
        Waze
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Surely there's something to do downtown in your daily life that can spread out the costs though? I don't know your neighborhood, but even just a Trader's Joe (or other grocery store) near the parking spot would integrate your work-day into a grocery-run, or other such regular activity. If this isn't a regular enough occurance, its still a benefit to do it once or twice a week, as you need. If not all the time, then you start thinking about how you can use mass transit at least some of the time. Home -> Mall -> Work -> Mall -> Buy Groceries -> Home. Or maybe gym activities, or whatnot. I don't know what exists in that commercial area, but in my experience, there tend to be lots of things to do around bus stops.
      - Fatnino 5y ago
        You're really grasping at straws here. OK, let's look at what there is to do in downtown Mountain View https://maps.app.goo.gl/JizDZA8K8tdxo6mU7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/JizDZA8K8tdxo6mU7 This pin is to the transit center. To the south southwest is the business district. Nearly ALL of it is restaurants and bars. It's honestly impressive how 4 city blocks are basically one giant food court. But I thought the point of this was to save money, not spend way too much eating out every night. There is a CVS a few blocks away, but let's be honest, I'm going to do my shopping at my local store in Palo Alto a mere 10 minute walk from my house. I'm not planning an excursion to DTMV to shop at the one store. As for the rest of the time, the main thing I like to do for fun/excersize is go hiking in the hills around here. The number of trailheads that have transit to them is so vanishingly small it might as well not exist.
- runarberg 5y ago
  People won’t like it this way for very long once the gas prices are up 30%. At which point California and the Federal government will have to step in and rectify this situation. The easiest solution would be to mandate worker pickups and to massively increase the bus network and frequency. The Bay area certainly has the density to justify massive bus subsidies if it means saving fuel during an energy crisis.

Retric 5y ago

Oddly enough School Busses do cover almost every address in the US, which demonstrates such a network isn’t inherently difficult to build. Rather automobiles are just really convenient in low density areas.

abalashov 5y ago
For two trips a day; they're effectively charter buses. And a lot of them take very long, circuitous journeys; my kid's bus comes at 6:45 AM, long before school starts! Now make them run every 10-15 minutes so anyone can get anywhere any time, also add a bunch of transfer points and intermodal nodes...
- dragontamer 5y ago
  > Now make them run every 10-15 minutes so anyone can get anywhere any time, also add a bunch of transfer points and intermodal nodes... Lets start with the basics. To-and-from work, which is likely the #1 use of people's gasoline.
  - FeepingCreature 5y ago
    This creates an interesting work model: drive to work via company bus in the morning, drive home via company bus in the evening, just leave your laptop on the bus. Travel time counts as work time. Same route twice a day, so everybody works the same length.
  - abalashov 5y ago
    That's the whole point. School is just one destination in which all the school buses converge...
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      My high-school only had 2000 students, and elementary/middle school had only a fraction of that. Surely a lot of us work on campuses / office complexes that have more than 2000 office workers? If we have bus systems that can effectively serve ~500 person elementary schools or ~300 person elementary schools, surely we can serve a 5000-person office complex with some kind of mass-transit option?

idontwantthis 5y ago

I thought he meant long distance buses. https://www.greyhound.com/-/media/greyhound/images/discover/2019-greyhound-network-map.pdf https://www.greyhound.com/-/media/greyhound/images/discover/... Can get to basically every metro area by bus in America. From there you'd need to get someone to drive you to your final destination.