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I think Andre the petty thief being robbed (or freezing to death, or ODing) while sleeping on the street is not ideal, but better than the status quo where we a

by sershe 5y ago

I think Andre the petty thief being robbed (or freezing to death, or ODing) while sleeping on the street is not ideal, but better than the status quo where we actively support and encourage his activities in the city. Why would we be humane to someone who fundamentally doesn't respect others' rights?

woodruffw 5y ago
Not letting someone die of exposure or crime is not supporting or encouraging his activities. > Why would we be humane to someone who fundamentally doesn't respect others' rights? This is a deeply dispiriting and reactionary way to look at the world. You do it because humane treatment is an end in itself, not a reward we give people for being “good.” It’s not earned, it’s due. Edit: And, to be absolutely clear: there’s no world in which pointlessly punishing Andre gets what you what you want. Giving caffeine to a drunk doesn’t make them less drunk; it turns them into a wide awake drunk. Punishing someone with homelessness and exposure doesn’t make them into less of a petty criminal; it turns them into a more desperate and jaded one.
- sershe 5y ago
  There's space between "punishing" and "rewarding". In my book, giving someone free housing when they came somewhere to steal as a career, is "rewarding". That is why e.g. immigration systems in Canada and Australia have point systems where they want to encourage good workers to come to them - keeping them out would not be "punishing" - letting them in is "rewarding" them for planning to do useful work in e.g. Canada. Also "humane treatment is an end in itself, not a reward we give people for being “good.” It’s not earned, it’s due." this is a deeply naive and childish view of the world. The humane treatment is not "earned", yes - it's the default. But it can be "unearned" - if someone doesn't give others the "humane" treatment, they don't deserve one either. Social contract, sorta.
RobertMiller 5y ago
> Why would we be humane to someone who fundamentally doesn't respect others' rights? From a purely pragmatic standpoint: because it's good for general morale.
- sershe 5y ago
  Dozens of homeless die in Seattle per year from ODs, cold, fights, etc. The general morale doesn't appear to be affected very much. On the other hand, it does seem to be affected by crime and 3rd-world conditions on the street... so, on the margins, death of a career criminal would improve general morale.

by sershe 5y ago

woodruffw 5y ago

Not letting someone die of exposure or crime is not supporting or encouraging his activities. > Why would we be humane to someone who fundamentally doesn't respect others' rights? This is a deeply dispiriting and reactionary way to look at the world. You do it because humane treatment is an end in itself, not a reward we give people for being “good.” It’s not earned, it’s due. Edit: And, to be absolutely clear: there’s no world in which pointlessly punishing Andre gets what you what you want. Giving caffeine to a drunk doesn’t make them less drunk; it turns them into a wide awake drunk. Punishing someone with homelessness and exposure doesn’t make them into less of a petty criminal; it turns them into a more desperate and jaded one.

sershe 5y ago
There's space between "punishing" and "rewarding". In my book, giving someone free housing when they came somewhere to steal as a career, is "rewarding". That is why e.g. immigration systems in Canada and Australia have point systems where they want to encourage good workers to come to them - keeping them out would not be "punishing" - letting them in is "rewarding" them for planning to do useful work in e.g. Canada. Also "humane treatment is an end in itself, not a reward we give people for being “good.” It’s not earned, it’s due." this is a deeply naive and childish view of the world. The humane treatment is not "earned", yes - it's the default. But it can be "unearned" - if someone doesn't give others the "humane" treatment, they don't deserve one either. Social contract, sorta.

RobertMiller 5y ago

> Why would we be humane to someone who fundamentally doesn't respect others' rights? From a purely pragmatic standpoint: because it's good for general morale.

sershe 5y ago
Dozens of homeless die in Seattle per year from ODs, cold, fights, etc. The general morale doesn't appear to be affected very much. On the other hand, it does seem to be affected by crime and 3rd-world conditions on the street... so, on the margins, death of a career criminal would improve general morale.