7 ms·

House foundations, light switches, and water delivery, along with the professions that install them, are all regulated and licensed. There is somewhat of a tren

House foundations, light switches, and water delivery, along with the professions that install them, are all regulated and licensed. There is somewhat of a trend for the quality of those things to have regional variation, e.g., lower quality in places that have historically had weak code enforcement and weak unions. And yes, the regulation probably did make those things more expensive.

roland35 5y ago
Maybe more expensive up front but probably cheaper in the long run!
- swagasaurus-rex 5y ago
  If I could buy products that just work and don’t break, even if they cost 3x as much, they would pay for themselves with longer lifespans and less wasted productivity.
  - andi999 5y ago
    Historically you shd buy Miele then.
    - Schiendelman 5y ago
      For some products. Even they have some crap (in-wall espresso…)
    - Tor3 5y ago
      I replaced my 21 year old Miele washing machine recently. The solenoid-driven water intake valve broke. It wasn't a part of the machine itself, it was on the water intake tube. But the replacement part was nearly half the price of the brand new replacement Miele washing machine I ended up buying instead. The new one is slightly larger and has higher capacity, and doesn't suffer from a little design problem the original had, so I was ok with getting a new one. But yes, the original washing machine worked exactly as when it was brand new - it was just that intake valve on the tube.
      - jeffreygoesto 5y ago
        Ha. I just recently cleaned all hoses of our 10 year old one (all were quite ok to reach) and hope to have it another 10 years.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      Yeah, "historically"... But not any more.
      - andi999 5y ago
        Past performance is unfortunately not a safe marker for future performance.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  Just like a quality automobile, to bring the discussion closer to the article. For example, a Tesla Model 3 might cost more than a Hyundai I10, but after three years of ownership you've not had to change the oil, fill it with gas, get the tailpipe emissions inspected, possibly see the catalytic converter stolen, etc. And the difference in maintenance only grows from there, when the plugs and timing belt and seals and transmission and other items wear. Lots of products have more expensive buy-in buy are cheaper in the long run.
  - nly 5y ago
    My partner leases a petrol car, and except for pumping up the tyres every now and then we've never done anything to it. Servicing is fully covered and the garage keeps track of when things need changing. It wasn't so long ago that leasing was actually cheaper option than buying (on credit).
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      Even if you're not paying for the service, you still need to take the time to do it or get it done for you.
  - JoachimSchipper 5y ago
    Ehm, doesn’t Tesla have famously bad quality control in several areas, e.g. fit of body panels? EVs, as a category, need less maintenance - but Tesla’s are not an example of a trouble-free product! (They are legitimately cool though!)
    - kreddor 5y ago
      Also, I've driven a Hyundai i10 for the last 10 years and it's been very reliable. Maybe because I don't drive that much to begin with, but still.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      Sure, the early Model 3's had body panel fit problems. I actually bought one last week, and the fit is amazing, both interior and exterior. I don't know why that point keeps coming up. For what it's worth, I used to be a tech at a Ford dealer, so I know what bad fitment looks like!
- bjoli 5y ago
  I have two things in my possession that are wonders of engineering. One hair trimmer and one restaurant kitchen blender/kitchen multifunction machine. Both made in 1987 in East Germany. The blender I bought second hand, and it came with a box of original replacement parts and specifications so detailed that I believe I could probably replace the motor if it ever fails (almost 6hp! Take that, Vitamix!). It makes nut butter in no time. The trimmer could probably be used to cut down trees. I love these machines, and if they ever fail I don't thing I could ever replace them with anything of similar quality. They are 35 years old. The electronics in the kitchen machine still look pristine. I keep all bearings well lubed. It runs like a Swiss watch. Only very loud.
  - dijit 5y ago
    is this not the very definition of survivorship bias though? I have things from the 80s that, obviously, have lasted a long time. But I have owned things from that era that have failed and been forgotten about. Incidentally I bought some boots this year that are expected to last (at a minimum) 10 years, and I suspect they would, but I can't know that until 10 years from now. Heirloom quality is probably still a thing, but only discoverable when an item actually becomes an heirloom.
    - bjoli 5y ago
      Probably. I don't have ten of these machines, so it is hard to make a general statement. I mostly meant it as a comment on what the parent said; I could pay four times the price for something and have it last 35 years (which is 15x longer than the blender I had before it) I gladly would. The fact that I can repair most of it is also a thing I miss in the things I buy today.
    - PinguTS 5y ago
      The above author mentions that these machines are from Eastern Germany. As I am from Eastern Germany myself, I can tell you that we had regulations in place, that machines had to last and had to be repairable. Those regulations came into place, because we had heavily resource problems. Funfact: Those type of regulations are heavily discussed even these times again, when I look at EU right to be repair, or the discussions specifically around John Deere and the right to be repair.
spacebanana7 5y ago
The filesystems example given by OP is an interesting counterpoint - Linux filesystems are the opposite of regulated, regionally varied, and expensive.
- PixelOfDeath 5y ago
  Well we also ended up with BTRFS raid5/6
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- pixl97 5y ago
  File systems are very expensive. Not up front, but instead on failure. Bad/cheap file systems don't last long.
- q1w2 5y ago
  I think "mature" is the more correct term. It's not the regulation, it's just that it's been vetted and repeated so many times that it has become rock solid. This is why I never select cutting edge tech for our company - unless it's part of our area of expertise/innovation.
- analog31 5y ago
  That's also true. Filesystems do have an advantage of being testable by millions of people, relatively stable from one user to another over the medium term, and at least the experts share their experiences. Also, there are no gaps in the regions that benefit from good filesystems. Regional enforcement means spotty enforcement. As for expense, the reliability of the filesystem is free up to a certain point. There are system failure modes that have to be covered by hardware and admin expenses, such as decentralized backups (just one example off the top of my head).
youdontknowjack 5y ago
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I live in Alabama where there is virtually NO CODE, and NO ENFORCEMENT, and there definitely aren't any God damned unions, either. My house foundation, light switches, and water delivery are perfectly fine, thanks. Matter of fact, I did the wiring and installed the well pump and a fair bit of plumbing myself. Didn't have to ask anyone's permission to do it, either. Wow, imagine that radical concept--a society that functions well without government goons breathing down everyone's neck! Maybe we could even come up with a word to describe this amazing new idea. "Freedom" maybe? "Liberty"? Enjoy your slavery, serf.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  How profitable do you think it is to make special non-regulatory-compliant faucets and light switches just for the Alabama market? Probably not very, so manufacturers just sell the same regulations-proof equipment there that they sell to the rest of the US. In effect, you're freeloading on the regulatory work of non-Alabamians. Enjoy your working non-lethal infrastructure, parasite.
Siira 5y ago
Considering the regulations aren’t universal, but they seem to work fine everywhere, your hypothesis sounds preposterous.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  A) Have you really been everywhere to check? B) There are regulations almost everywhere (especially, almost everywhere that has a profitable market to sell into), so it's probably easiest to just sell regulation-compliant equipment in the rest of them, too. So it's not at all "preposterous" that the regulations actually work even in most places where they're not legally in force, and that you've just not noticed the few where they don't.
xyzzy21 5y ago
Semiconductors are not regulated except in terms of large scale externalities - e.g. water quality, air emissions, etc. Otherwise they pretty much use any methods, processes or means that they want. They do have economic incentives based on the constraints of physics - you can't boost defect densities of wafers by screaming at Mother Nature so to assure a market for your products, there are constraints on quality and process that all things equal you'd skip since they are "cost centers".

roland35 5y ago

Maybe more expensive up front but probably cheaper in the long run!

swagasaurus-rex 5y ago
If I could buy products that just work and don’t break, even if they cost 3x as much, they would pay for themselves with longer lifespans and less wasted productivity.
- andi999 5y ago
  Historically you shd buy Miele then.
  - Schiendelman 5y ago
    For some products. Even they have some crap (in-wall espresso…)
  - Tor3 5y ago
    I replaced my 21 year old Miele washing machine recently. The solenoid-driven water intake valve broke. It wasn't a part of the machine itself, it was on the water intake tube. But the replacement part was nearly half the price of the brand new replacement Miele washing machine I ended up buying instead. The new one is slightly larger and has higher capacity, and doesn't suffer from a little design problem the original had, so I was ok with getting a new one. But yes, the original washing machine worked exactly as when it was brand new - it was just that intake valve on the tube.
    - jeffreygoesto 5y ago
      Ha. I just recently cleaned all hoses of our 10 year old one (all were quite ok to reach) and hope to have it another 10 years.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Yeah, "historically"... But not any more.
    - andi999 5y ago
      Past performance is unfortunately not a safe marker for future performance.
dotancohen 5y ago
Just like a quality automobile, to bring the discussion closer to the article. For example, a Tesla Model 3 might cost more than a Hyundai I10, but after three years of ownership you've not had to change the oil, fill it with gas, get the tailpipe emissions inspected, possibly see the catalytic converter stolen, etc. And the difference in maintenance only grows from there, when the plugs and timing belt and seals and transmission and other items wear. Lots of products have more expensive buy-in buy are cheaper in the long run.
- nly 5y ago
  My partner leases a petrol car, and except for pumping up the tyres every now and then we've never done anything to it. Servicing is fully covered and the garage keeps track of when things need changing. It wasn't so long ago that leasing was actually cheaper option than buying (on credit).
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    Even if you're not paying for the service, you still need to take the time to do it or get it done for you.
- JoachimSchipper 5y ago
  Ehm, doesn’t Tesla have famously bad quality control in several areas, e.g. fit of body panels? EVs, as a category, need less maintenance - but Tesla’s are not an example of a trouble-free product! (They are legitimately cool though!)
  - kreddor 5y ago
    Also, I've driven a Hyundai i10 for the last 10 years and it's been very reliable. Maybe because I don't drive that much to begin with, but still.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    Sure, the early Model 3's had body panel fit problems. I actually bought one last week, and the fit is amazing, both interior and exterior. I don't know why that point keeps coming up. For what it's worth, I used to be a tech at a Ford dealer, so I know what bad fitment looks like!
bjoli 5y ago
I have two things in my possession that are wonders of engineering. One hair trimmer and one restaurant kitchen blender/kitchen multifunction machine. Both made in 1987 in East Germany. The blender I bought second hand, and it came with a box of original replacement parts and specifications so detailed that I believe I could probably replace the motor if it ever fails (almost 6hp! Take that, Vitamix!). It makes nut butter in no time. The trimmer could probably be used to cut down trees. I love these machines, and if they ever fail I don't thing I could ever replace them with anything of similar quality. They are 35 years old. The electronics in the kitchen machine still look pristine. I keep all bearings well lubed. It runs like a Swiss watch. Only very loud.
- dijit 5y ago
  is this not the very definition of survivorship bias though? I have things from the 80s that, obviously, have lasted a long time. But I have owned things from that era that have failed and been forgotten about. Incidentally I bought some boots this year that are expected to last (at a minimum) 10 years, and I suspect they would, but I can't know that until 10 years from now. Heirloom quality is probably still a thing, but only discoverable when an item actually becomes an heirloom.
  - bjoli 5y ago
    Probably. I don't have ten of these machines, so it is hard to make a general statement. I mostly meant it as a comment on what the parent said; I could pay four times the price for something and have it last 35 years (which is 15x longer than the blender I had before it) I gladly would. The fact that I can repair most of it is also a thing I miss in the things I buy today.
  - PinguTS 5y ago
    The above author mentions that these machines are from Eastern Germany. As I am from Eastern Germany myself, I can tell you that we had regulations in place, that machines had to last and had to be repairable. Those regulations came into place, because we had heavily resource problems. Funfact: Those type of regulations are heavily discussed even these times again, when I look at EU right to be repair, or the discussions specifically around John Deere and the right to be repair.

spacebanana7 5y ago

The filesystems example given by OP is an interesting counterpoint - Linux filesystems are the opposite of regulated, regionally varied, and expensive.

PixelOfDeath 5y ago
Well we also ended up with BTRFS raid5/6
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
pixl97 5y ago
File systems are very expensive. Not up front, but instead on failure. Bad/cheap file systems don't last long.
q1w2 5y ago
I think "mature" is the more correct term. It's not the regulation, it's just that it's been vetted and repeated so many times that it has become rock solid. This is why I never select cutting edge tech for our company - unless it's part of our area of expertise/innovation.
analog31 5y ago
That's also true. Filesystems do have an advantage of being testable by millions of people, relatively stable from one user to another over the medium term, and at least the experts share their experiences. Also, there are no gaps in the regions that benefit from good filesystems. Regional enforcement means spotty enforcement. As for expense, the reliability of the filesystem is free up to a certain point. There are system failure modes that have to be covered by hardware and admin expenses, such as decentralized backups (just one example off the top of my head).

youdontknowjack 5y ago

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I live in Alabama where there is virtually NO CODE, and NO ENFORCEMENT, and there definitely aren't any God damned unions, either. My house foundation, light switches, and water delivery are perfectly fine, thanks. Matter of fact, I did the wiring and installed the well pump and a fair bit of plumbing myself. Didn't have to ask anyone's permission to do it, either. Wow, imagine that radical concept--a society that functions well without government goons breathing down everyone's neck! Maybe we could even come up with a word to describe this amazing new idea. "Freedom" maybe? "Liberty"? Enjoy your slavery, serf.

CRConrad 5y ago
How profitable do you think it is to make special non-regulatory-compliant faucets and light switches just for the Alabama market? Probably not very, so manufacturers just sell the same regulations-proof equipment there that they sell to the rest of the US. In effect, you're freeloading on the regulatory work of non-Alabamians. Enjoy your working non-lethal infrastructure, parasite.

Siira 5y ago

Considering the regulations aren’t universal, but they seem to work fine everywhere, your hypothesis sounds preposterous.

CRConrad 5y ago
A) Have you really been everywhere to check? B) There are regulations almost everywhere (especially, almost everywhere that has a profitable market to sell into), so it's probably easiest to just sell regulation-compliant equipment in the rest of them, too. So it's not at all "preposterous" that the regulations actually work even in most places where they're not legally in force, and that you've just not noticed the few where they don't.

xyzzy21 5y ago

Semiconductors are not regulated except in terms of large scale externalities - e.g. water quality, air emissions, etc. Otherwise they pretty much use any methods, processes or means that they want. They do have economic incentives based on the constraints of physics - you can't boost defect densities of wafers by screaming at Mother Nature so to assure a market for your products, there are constraints on quality and process that all things equal you'd skip since they are "cost centers".