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Have been a strong(!) advocate for Firefox for years. Now it is time to switch. Not sure where to yet, Chrome is not any better, Palemoon is not exactly well s

Have been a strong(!) advocate for Firefox for years. Now it is time to switch. Not sure where to yet, Chrome is not any better, Palemoon is not exactly well supported. Maybe Brave, Vivaldi, or Opera, though they are all Chrome-based as well. Difficult decision and not very happy about it, as I do think we need more than just one browser engine, but I can't support Mozilla any more.

bobmichael 5y ago
Why? Honest question.
- fortnum 5y ago
  Honest answer :) Because I do not condone that move. It will be difficult because I have been using Firefox for years and tried to avoid anything Chrome-based and I am not very happy with Google's Manifest v3 approach, but Mozilla just crossed a red line for me.
  - krisoft 5y ago
    > Because I do not condone that move. Thank you for your answer. Could you elaborate on it? Is it a software freedom question to you? Or perhaps a free speech one?
    - fortnum 5y ago
      - krisoft 5y ago
        No worries, perfectly understandable. Emotions are high now. Have a nice day!
      - alogray 5y ago
        Making a reply to say you won’t make a reply because a reply you make could be downvoted does not really follow. Can folk who disagree with you not just now downvote this reply, both for political disagreements but also wasting everyone’s time?
    - sharikous 5y ago
      I agree with the grandparent comment. And it is because of separation of concerns. You can put it in the same basket as freedom of speech, but it's a bit different. A browser is a browser. It does not have to promote a moral view. In fact it has to provide ways to find information. Not to limit purposefully ways to find information.
      - alogray 5y ago
        It sounds like your issue is not that the browser is promoting a moral view but rather that it’s promoting one in conflict with the moral view you think it should be promoting.
        sharikous 5y ago
        No my issue is exactly that the browser is promoting a moral view. You are somewhat right on a meta level: I think a browser should promote the moral view that it shouldn't promote any moral view in particular.
  - aufhebung 5y ago
    Can't you just manually put yandex search in? Seems like an odd place to be putting a red line.
    - h0h0h0h0111 5y ago
      Not OP (and not yet uninstalling firefox, but it feels ever closer), but it feels like mozilla have done something sneaky and questionable every quarter now for the past 2 years. For OP, this is possibly the straw that broke the camel's back
    - CodeGlitch 5y ago
      Yes but they keep doing these "small" things, that individually don't cross any lines but do add up over time.
      - BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
        I feel like this is a weird attitude to have toward an open-source software project. "Sure, developers added 900 performance improvements / new features / bug fixes this quarter to a browser I get to use for free, but they also did 2 non-critical things I don't really care for so now I oppose this software." I do think it would have been _better_ if Firefox made the set of included-by-default search providers something that gets merged into your profile, so that future removals only affect new installations / new profiles (and existing users who happen to use that engine don't have to go out of their way to re-add them after an update). I don't really care _which_ search engine definitions come with a browser out-of-the-box, as long as they're easy to customize.
        4bpp 5y ago
        I fancy myself a fairly technically aware person, and I have no idea what improvements, features or bug fixes Firefox added this quarter that would outweigh all the little and big bad things. In terms of performance, a recent patch made Electrolysis or what it is they called their per-domain process thing the default, immediately making CPU and especially RAM usage shoot up massively (as well as introducing some new bugs pertaining to dead IPC pipes). I tried to put up with it for maybe a week and then switched it off by an about:config switch, which I'm entirely sure they will remove in another 10 versions at the latest. The only way in which I see them adding features takes the form of supporting the latest of the stream of under-the-hood changes that keep coming out of Google's web standard printer, which generally seem to add no user-visible functionality or benefits but are inevitably relied on by some random subset of important websites resulting in the internet gradually breaking if I don't want to update my browser. I would much rather they use their dwindling influence on standards bodies to block and sabotage the changes that necessitate the constant updating (and attendant maintenance burden which takes smaller browser projects out of the running) at every turn; and if it so happens that this results in their influence disappearing even faster and/or them getting booted, then at least this may pave the way for the long-overdue antitrust suit against Google that many have been saying Mozilla's existence serves to prevent. (It's not like Firefox is developed by unpaid volunteers. Am I using the browser "for free" if Google sees it as advantageous to pay them money for, among others, my continued existence as a user of the browser?)
  - stonewareslord 5y ago
    Did it really cross a red line for you? I feel like Firefox is judged much more harshly than Chrome and it's unfair. Mozilla the company has made some terrible decisions that I strongly disagree with (update page featuring a movie ad, pocket integration, removing a search engine from the defaults, nerfing android addons for no reason) But compared to every other browser, I don't understand how people think it's even a comparison. Chrome (user history tracking, targeted advertising, FLOC, manifest v3, strong-arming due to market share, etc etc), Edge (same as chrome but replace G with M), and Brave (referral link injection, cryptocoin adware). To me, no single thing on FF's list is worse than any single thing in the other list. And together it's out of the question which is better. I don't think it's useful to tell regular people not to use Firefox either unless you tell them they really shouldn't be using the other three (which I doubt many are doing). Am I missing something? Honest question - do you really think the negatives of having someone use not-firefox outweigh the negatives of Firefox?
    - fortnum 5y ago
      - BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
        Why do you care what your comment's score is? I (and the person who replied to you, and others) can still see the thread just fine.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
      > I feel like Firefox is judged much more harshly than Chrome and it's unfair. Mozilla claimed that their mission was to empower users. Some people are more upset by hypocrisy than the actual actions. If they want to change https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/ from "More power to you." to, say, "More power to us." then I'd personally be a lot less irritated at them. (This isn't specifically a comment on the current subject, BTW; I've been increasingly irritated by Mozilla's hypocrisy for years now.)
      - 5y ago
- TheRealNGenius 5y ago
  why else, they're Russian and sympathize with Putin prolly
  - ummonk 5y ago
    I can’t tell whether you’re being sarcastic.
jtriangle 5y ago
I've been on vivaldi for awhile, and I've found it to be fairly suitable for my needs. It's more or less chrome with added features, and at least a little less google spyware, and at most none. Though, you are forced to either manually install extensions, or use the chrome store, which will require you to use some google features, but there's no real way around that.
xanaxagoras 5y ago
I'm curious to see if LibreWolf will bring this FF change in.
- ratsmack 5y ago
  I'm waiting to see what Debian does.
Dracophoenix 5y ago
Have you tried Librewolf?
iorrus 5y ago
I moved to brave when they made that blog post [1]. I’m very happy although I agree it’s better to have competition in the browser space. I’ve also moved to brave search recently after DuckDuckGo announced they were downgrading Russian sites. I might try Yandex too as I don’t like the brave search layout. [1] https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat...
JohnWhigham 5y ago
Your only options are Webkit-based browsers or FF forks that are frequently behind and will probably croak sometime in the future.
- fortnum 5y ago
  I realise that. That is exactly my concern, however sometimes one has to make concessions.
  - JohnWhigham 5y ago
    Hope you made the right one and stuck with FF. Using a Webkit browser is actively contributing to a disgusting monopoly that doesn't give a fuck about the end users.
    - fortnum 5y ago
      As I mentioned, I can't support Mozilla any more and hence am migrating away. I am not entirely happy supporting the Chrome universe at this point, but this is the only way if Mozilla is not an option any more.
busymom0 5y ago
I switched back to Safari. In Firefox, I would usually click the first two items on the home page which would be photopea or reddit. Today, they put 2 sponsored items for Amazon and Trivago instead and I accidentally clicked the amazon one without realizing because that first item was supposed to be Photopea. That was enough to piss me off. https://i.imgur.com/s7NIfCX.png https://i.imgur.com/s7NIfCX.png
thepasswordis 5y ago
Brave. It was founded by Brendan Eich, who also founded Mozilla, but was ousted before all of this weird non-mozilly stuff started happening.
- hda2 5y ago
  What's the status on allowing all addons and devtools on Brave for Android? I switched away from brave to another browser because those features were stripped out.
  - BrendanEich 5y ago
    Google stripped out extension support, and we haven't been able to bear the cost of adding it back — lots of forked files. If you are using KiwiBrowser, check what the chromium version is vs. latest, and check secbugfix back-porting.

bobmichael 5y ago

Why? Honest question.

fortnum 5y ago
Honest answer :) Because I do not condone that move. It will be difficult because I have been using Firefox for years and tried to avoid anything Chrome-based and I am not very happy with Google's Manifest v3 approach, but Mozilla just crossed a red line for me.
- krisoft 5y ago
  > Because I do not condone that move. Thank you for your answer. Could you elaborate on it? Is it a software freedom question to you? Or perhaps a free speech one?
  - fortnum 5y ago
    - krisoft 5y ago
      No worries, perfectly understandable. Emotions are high now. Have a nice day!
    - alogray 5y ago
      Making a reply to say you won’t make a reply because a reply you make could be downvoted does not really follow. Can folk who disagree with you not just now downvote this reply, both for political disagreements but also wasting everyone’s time?
  - sharikous 5y ago
    I agree with the grandparent comment. And it is because of separation of concerns. You can put it in the same basket as freedom of speech, but it's a bit different. A browser is a browser. It does not have to promote a moral view. In fact it has to provide ways to find information. Not to limit purposefully ways to find information.
    - alogray 5y ago
      It sounds like your issue is not that the browser is promoting a moral view but rather that it’s promoting one in conflict with the moral view you think it should be promoting.
      - sharikous 5y ago
        No my issue is exactly that the browser is promoting a moral view. You are somewhat right on a meta level: I think a browser should promote the moral view that it shouldn't promote any moral view in particular.
- aufhebung 5y ago
  Can't you just manually put yandex search in? Seems like an odd place to be putting a red line.
  - h0h0h0h0111 5y ago
    Not OP (and not yet uninstalling firefox, but it feels ever closer), but it feels like mozilla have done something sneaky and questionable every quarter now for the past 2 years. For OP, this is possibly the straw that broke the camel's back
  - CodeGlitch 5y ago
    Yes but they keep doing these "small" things, that individually don't cross any lines but do add up over time.
    - BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
      I feel like this is a weird attitude to have toward an open-source software project. "Sure, developers added 900 performance improvements / new features / bug fixes this quarter to a browser I get to use for free, but they also did 2 non-critical things I don't really care for so now I oppose this software." I do think it would have been _better_ if Firefox made the set of included-by-default search providers something that gets merged into your profile, so that future removals only affect new installations / new profiles (and existing users who happen to use that engine don't have to go out of their way to re-add them after an update). I don't really care _which_ search engine definitions come with a browser out-of-the-box, as long as they're easy to customize.
      - 4bpp 5y ago
        I fancy myself a fairly technically aware person, and I have no idea what improvements, features or bug fixes Firefox added this quarter that would outweigh all the little and big bad things. In terms of performance, a recent patch made Electrolysis or what it is they called their per-domain process thing the default, immediately making CPU and especially RAM usage shoot up massively (as well as introducing some new bugs pertaining to dead IPC pipes). I tried to put up with it for maybe a week and then switched it off by an about:config switch, which I'm entirely sure they will remove in another 10 versions at the latest. The only way in which I see them adding features takes the form of supporting the latest of the stream of under-the-hood changes that keep coming out of Google's web standard printer, which generally seem to add no user-visible functionality or benefits but are inevitably relied on by some random subset of important websites resulting in the internet gradually breaking if I don't want to update my browser. I would much rather they use their dwindling influence on standards bodies to block and sabotage the changes that necessitate the constant updating (and attendant maintenance burden which takes smaller browser projects out of the running) at every turn; and if it so happens that this results in their influence disappearing even faster and/or them getting booted, then at least this may pave the way for the long-overdue antitrust suit against Google that many have been saying Mozilla's existence serves to prevent. (It's not like Firefox is developed by unpaid volunteers. Am I using the browser "for free" if Google sees it as advantageous to pay them money for, among others, my continued existence as a user of the browser?)
- stonewareslord 5y ago
  Did it really cross a red line for you? I feel like Firefox is judged much more harshly than Chrome and it's unfair. Mozilla the company has made some terrible decisions that I strongly disagree with (update page featuring a movie ad, pocket integration, removing a search engine from the defaults, nerfing android addons for no reason) But compared to every other browser, I don't understand how people think it's even a comparison. Chrome (user history tracking, targeted advertising, FLOC, manifest v3, strong-arming due to market share, etc etc), Edge (same as chrome but replace G with M), and Brave (referral link injection, cryptocoin adware). To me, no single thing on FF's list is worse than any single thing in the other list. And together it's out of the question which is better. I don't think it's useful to tell regular people not to use Firefox either unless you tell them they really shouldn't be using the other three (which I doubt many are doing). Am I missing something? Honest question - do you really think the negatives of having someone use not-firefox outweigh the negatives of Firefox?
  - fortnum 5y ago
    - BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
      Why do you care what your comment's score is? I (and the person who replied to you, and others) can still see the thread just fine.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    > I feel like Firefox is judged much more harshly than Chrome and it's unfair. Mozilla claimed that their mission was to empower users. Some people are more upset by hypocrisy than the actual actions. If they want to change https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/ from "More power to you." to, say, "More power to us." then I'd personally be a lot less irritated at them. (This isn't specifically a comment on the current subject, BTW; I've been increasingly irritated by Mozilla's hypocrisy for years now.)
    - 5y ago
TheRealNGenius 5y ago
why else, they're Russian and sympathize with Putin prolly
- ummonk 5y ago
  I can’t tell whether you’re being sarcastic.

jtriangle 5y ago

I've been on vivaldi for awhile, and I've found it to be fairly suitable for my needs. It's more or less chrome with added features, and at least a little less google spyware, and at most none. Though, you are forced to either manually install extensions, or use the chrome store, which will require you to use some google features, but there's no real way around that.

xanaxagoras 5y ago

I'm curious to see if LibreWolf will bring this FF change in.

ratsmack 5y ago
I'm waiting to see what Debian does.

Dracophoenix 5y ago

Have you tried Librewolf?

iorrus 5y ago

I moved to brave when they made that blog post [1]. I’m very happy although I agree it’s better to have competition in the browser space. I’ve also moved to brave search recently after DuckDuckGo announced they were downgrading Russian sites. I might try Yandex too as I don’t like the brave search layout. [1] https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat...

JohnWhigham 5y ago

Your only options are Webkit-based browsers or FF forks that are frequently behind and will probably croak sometime in the future.

fortnum 5y ago
I realise that. That is exactly my concern, however sometimes one has to make concessions.
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  Hope you made the right one and stuck with FF. Using a Webkit browser is actively contributing to a disgusting monopoly that doesn't give a fuck about the end users.
  - fortnum 5y ago
    As I mentioned, I can't support Mozilla any more and hence am migrating away. I am not entirely happy supporting the Chrome universe at this point, but this is the only way if Mozilla is not an option any more.

busymom0 5y ago

I switched back to Safari. In Firefox, I would usually click the first two items on the home page which would be photopea or reddit. Today, they put 2 sponsored items for Amazon and Trivago instead and I accidentally clicked the amazon one without realizing because that first item was supposed to be Photopea. That was enough to piss me off. https://i.imgur.com/s7NIfCX.png https://i.imgur.com/s7NIfCX.png

thepasswordis 5y ago

Brave. It was founded by Brendan Eich, who also founded Mozilla, but was ousted before all of this weird non-mozilly stuff started happening.

hda2 5y ago
What's the status on allowing all addons and devtools on Brave for Android? I switched away from brave to another browser because those features were stripped out.
- BrendanEich 5y ago
  Google stripped out extension support, and we haven't been able to bear the cost of adding it back — lots of forked files. If you are using KiwiBrowser, check what the chromium version is vs. latest, and check secbugfix back-porting.