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Edit: removing the snark/sarcasm I put into it. I was really hoping this announcement would include support for push notifications for PWAs. I've been trying t

Edit: removing the snark/sarcasm I put into it. I was really hoping this announcement would include support for push notifications for PWAs. I've been trying to build a few Discourse forums and they work very well as PWAs except for the fact that iOS doesn't support PWAs sending push notifications. So here's to hoping the next iteration will.

Someone1234 5y ago
I want it so I can uninstall Facebook Messager. On Android I can log into Facebook's website, and receive push notifications via the web-browser. On iOS my choices are either the native iOS app (which has substantially more data hooks) or nothing at all. Essentially browser Push Notifications increase my privacy. PS - I am sympathetic to complaints about push notification request spam, but that feels like a solvable issue without throwing the dishes out with the bathwater. You shouldn't need an "app" just for notifications.
- js2 5y ago
  I interact with FB messages solely through mbasic.facebook.com, even on my phone. It’s painful enough to keep me off the site, a benefit.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    Whoa I didn't know that this existed, thank you for sharing it.
  - toastal 5y ago
    I've used it in a container for ages (SlimSocial on F-Droid store). I removed it being listed by my launcher so I have to go through Settings > Apps and scroll that list. It's so annoying to use and get to it that I barely use Facebook anymore.
- muhehe 5y ago
  How do you use messenger like this? When I go to messenger.com a get pretty much just button with link play store...
  - Someone1234 5y ago
    Just log into Facebook.com in Chrome, enable Push Notifications, and then press new message notifications to re-launch Facebook.com.
    - toastal 5y ago
      Not recommended unless you have some isolation as you maybe leaking data through the browser.
  - BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
    Turn on Desktop Mode for that site.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Apple likes to trot out Facebook as a privacy boogeyman when it comes to defending their App Store business model, but when their business model necessitates that Facebook has invasive native apps, suddenly they're silent. PWAs would increase security all around compared to native apps, but that might cut into App Store revenue.
  - CharlesW 5y ago
    > Apple likes to trot out Facebook as a privacy boogeyman when it comes to defending their App Store business model, but when their business model necessitates that Facebook has invasive native apps, suddenly they're silent. Are you joking? https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/03/facebook-10-billion-in-2022-apple-measures/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/03/facebook-10-billion-in-...
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      Exactly my point, they'll trot Facebook out as a defense of their App Store model just like they did here. PWAs from the beginning would have prevented Facebook from collecting data for the last decade in the first place, but that's not a solution Apple would allow.
      - comex 5y ago
        True, a PWA wouldn’t have been able to get the unique device ID, which is (I think) the only technical effect of the App Tracking Transparency toggle added last year. But that toggle also has legal effects that go further [1]. For instance, apps can’t “[display] targeted advertisements in your app based on user data collected from apps and websites owned by other companies”, even that data was correlated with your app session based on, say, account name or email address rather than device IDs. But the only reason Apple is in a position to impose this kind of requirement is that they’re a gatekeeper for iOS apps. With web apps, short of government action, the best you can do ask nicely, and we all know how the Do Not Track header ended up. [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/user-privacy-and-data-use/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/user-privacy-and-data-..., “Asking Permission to Track”
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  Can I just say “throwing the dishes out with the bathwater” is the best thing I’ve read today? I want you to get the notifications you prefer, I want to not get web notifications, I don’t care to argue over that. I just want to appreciate doing the dishes in anyone’s bath water. That’s darn efficient!
tekacs 5y ago
I was following this and it did seem to appear in the beta -- I'm not sure whether it has been removed in the GA version listed here, or if they simply haven't mentioned it since it's perhaps a browser rather than WebKit feature? ... I assume WebKit has had support for this for a long time, since Safari on macOS has long supported push notifications. https://firt.dev/ios-15.4b https://firt.dev/ios-15.4b
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  > since Safari on macOS has long supported push notifications. Safari on macOS does not support the web Push API[1]. Apple has a proprietary Safari Push Notification service that requires all notifications to go through Apple's servers first[2]. [1] https://caniuse.com/push-api https://caniuse.com/push-api [2] https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifications/ https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifi...
  - tekacs 5y ago
    Ah, thank you. :)
doctor_eval 5y ago
I thought I read [0] that there will be experimental support for push notifications in 15.4. Perhaps keep any eye on advanced safari settings when it comes out?. At least there appears to be progress, and you may be able test it. [0] eg, https://www.macworld.com/article/610673/ios-15-4-safari-push-notifications.html https://www.macworld.com/article/610673/ios-15-4-safari-push...
- alwillis 5y ago
  It’s in there but but not enabled by default, meaning it’s still in beta. It’ll probably be officially announced at Apple’s World Wide Developers Conference in June.
  - fouc 5y ago
    If we can enable it for our own purposes then that's big. Doesn't need to be on by default.
    - alwillis 5y ago
      If we can enable it for our own purposes then that's big. Doesn't need to be on by default. Agreed. Not being on by default likely means it's also buggy and incomplete.
hwers 5y ago
Personally I really hope they don't add this. Imagine how annoying to have to decline a "please turn on notifications" on every news site on your phone (which you're spammed with on desktop).
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  That would annoy me, too. Maybe they could have it only work for when you Add to Homescreen as a progressive web app, then it would be more opt-in.
  - filoleg 5y ago
    This is actually the perfect compromise that I haven’t even thought of until you’ve mentioned it. Up until now, I was opposed to webkit push notifications for the same reason as the grandparent comment. Thank you for your comment.
    - jimkleiber 5y ago
      You're welcome! Yeah, I didn't even know that they could segregate it based on whether it was going through the Add to Homescreen option, but learned of it through the article: > Web App Manifest improvements include ensuring the browser always fetches the manifest file during page load instead of when the user chooses to “Add to Home Screen” from the Share menu.
    - joshstrange 5y ago
      Unfortunately Apple has crippled PWAs compared to the exact same code running in the browser on multiple occasions. Up until just about a year and a half or so ago you couldn't access a WebRTC stream from a PWA. The main use-case I needed this for was for a barcode scanner (which uses WebRTC under the hood) so my options were "deal with browser chrome" or "repackage into an app", I ended up doing the second (and to be fair that was my ultimate goal) but I would have preferred to skip dealing with that until later (prototyping is still faster on web for me, even with live dev builds on mobile).
naoqj 5y ago
xfalcox 5y ago
As the person working on PWA stuff on Discourse I can assure we will be adding push support in iOS as soon as it's ready. It's a shame this is taking so long on iOS devices...
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  Oh, hey! Yes, from what I've seen on Discourse, you all are probably more excited for this than I am. Thank you for doing this.
kitsunesoba 5y ago
Doesn’t supporting web push notifications involve having worker processes running in the background all the time to poll or keep a socket open for updates? I could see that dragging down battery life if one has notifications for more than just a small handful of PWAs enabled.
- rabuse 5y ago
  Native apps already do this...
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Disagreed; they don't. They delegate messaging to the Apple Push Notification service which is a single process that maintains a persistent connection (and receives messages on behalf of apps). Apps only get woken up when a notification actually arrives.
electric_muse 5y ago
While we don't see updates in this announcement, we may start seeing more because they're getting so much antitrust pressure [0]. Handicapping PWA support by not supporting push notifications works strongly against any arguments they would want to make about there being viable alternatives to listing in the app store. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/08/27/apple-agrees-to-app-store-settlement-with-small-developers-as-antitrust-challenges-loom/?sh=43ea42902003 https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/08/27/apple-a...
eyelidlessness 5y ago
I’m sure many of your users would welcome this feature but I’m personally grateful that I don’t get random notifications from websites.
- Kbelicius 5y ago
  If other users were able to get notifications from websites that doesn't mean that you would get them, especially not from random websites.
- vetinari 5y ago
  You would not; you must grant a permission to push notifications to the site first.
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    I mean, yeah, with a thing popping up on my screen to ask me for it. Which is fine if I, say, install it as an app (eg PWA or whatever), but super annoying on websites I’m visiting for the first time.
  - dwaite 5y ago
    I'm grateful I don't get random popovers asking me whether or not I would approve a popup asking me to grant permissions for push notifications (because the scripts exit early on mobile safari)
    - vetinari 5y ago
      I don't feel overwhelmed by popups asking me to grant permissions for push notifications. But I'm glad that both sites where I care for them, can push them.
jmull 5y ago
I’m surprised by all the heat around the push notifications API. Is it really going to mean that much to web apps? I’m assuming it will work pretty much like push notifications on desktop, which is an awful UX.
- stack_framer 5y ago
  It would mean a great deal to all sorts of web apps! To provide just one example, I released a turn-based word game as a PWA two years ago. With no option for native push notifications on iOS, I decided to email players to notify them each time it was their turn in a game. Despite my domain having full support for DKIM, SPF, and DMARC, the usual problems of email were still a huge pain: Some domains (I'm looking at you hotmail.com) considered everything spam. In some email clients, the design of the emails looked totally wrong. Some of the more active players complained (rightfully so) that their inbox was filling up with these emails. Sadly, the overwhelming majority of games never got past one or two moves, in part because one of the two players didn't see the email that it was their turn. So yes, it would really, really help small businesses like mine if Safari would catch up here!
  - dbbk 5y ago
    The point is it would be overwhelmingly used for spam, causing users to tune out of all notifications.
moltke 5y ago
>So here's to hoping the next iteration will. I've completely given up any kind of hope for iOS. I hoped for years iOS would do reasonable things like allowing side loading or multitasking or push notifications. Apple knows these things would improve the platform, they don't do them because it would cut into their profits. If these features are ever added to the platform they will be handicapped in some way that makes them almost useless.

Someone1234 5y ago

I want it so I can uninstall Facebook Messager. On Android I can log into Facebook's website, and receive push notifications via the web-browser. On iOS my choices are either the native iOS app (which has substantially more data hooks) or nothing at all. Essentially browser Push Notifications increase my privacy. PS - I am sympathetic to complaints about push notification request spam, but that feels like a solvable issue without throwing the dishes out with the bathwater. You shouldn't need an "app" just for notifications.

js2 5y ago
I interact with FB messages solely through mbasic.facebook.com, even on my phone. It’s painful enough to keep me off the site, a benefit.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  Whoa I didn't know that this existed, thank you for sharing it.
- toastal 5y ago
  I've used it in a container for ages (SlimSocial on F-Droid store). I removed it being listed by my launcher so I have to go through Settings > Apps and scroll that list. It's so annoying to use and get to it that I barely use Facebook anymore.
muhehe 5y ago
How do you use messenger like this? When I go to messenger.com a get pretty much just button with link play store...
- Someone1234 5y ago
  Just log into Facebook.com in Chrome, enable Push Notifications, and then press new message notifications to re-launch Facebook.com.
  - toastal 5y ago
    Not recommended unless you have some isolation as you maybe leaking data through the browser.
- BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
  Turn on Desktop Mode for that site.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Apple likes to trot out Facebook as a privacy boogeyman when it comes to defending their App Store business model, but when their business model necessitates that Facebook has invasive native apps, suddenly they're silent. PWAs would increase security all around compared to native apps, but that might cut into App Store revenue.
- CharlesW 5y ago
  > Apple likes to trot out Facebook as a privacy boogeyman when it comes to defending their App Store business model, but when their business model necessitates that Facebook has invasive native apps, suddenly they're silent. Are you joking? https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/03/facebook-10-billion-in-2022-apple-measures/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/03/facebook-10-billion-in-...
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    Exactly my point, they'll trot Facebook out as a defense of their App Store model just like they did here. PWAs from the beginning would have prevented Facebook from collecting data for the last decade in the first place, but that's not a solution Apple would allow.
    - comex 5y ago
      True, a PWA wouldn’t have been able to get the unique device ID, which is (I think) the only technical effect of the App Tracking Transparency toggle added last year. But that toggle also has legal effects that go further [1]. For instance, apps can’t “[display] targeted advertisements in your app based on user data collected from apps and websites owned by other companies”, even that data was correlated with your app session based on, say, account name or email address rather than device IDs. But the only reason Apple is in a position to impose this kind of requirement is that they’re a gatekeeper for iOS apps. With web apps, short of government action, the best you can do ask nicely, and we all know how the Do Not Track header ended up. [1] https://developer.apple.com/app-store/user-privacy-and-data-use/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/user-privacy-and-data-..., “Asking Permission to Track”
eyelidlessness 5y ago
Can I just say “throwing the dishes out with the bathwater” is the best thing I’ve read today? I want you to get the notifications you prefer, I want to not get web notifications, I don’t care to argue over that. I just want to appreciate doing the dishes in anyone’s bath water. That’s darn efficient!

tekacs 5y ago

I was following this and it did seem to appear in the beta -- I'm not sure whether it has been removed in the GA version listed here, or if they simply haven't mentioned it since it's perhaps a browser rather than WebKit feature? ... I assume WebKit has had support for this for a long time, since Safari on macOS has long supported push notifications. https://firt.dev/ios-15.4b https://firt.dev/ios-15.4b

heavyset_go 5y ago
> since Safari on macOS has long supported push notifications. Safari on macOS does not support the web Push API[1]. Apple has a proprietary Safari Push Notification service that requires all notifications to go through Apple's servers first[2]. [1] https://caniuse.com/push-api https://caniuse.com/push-api [2] https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifications/ https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifi...
- tekacs 5y ago
  Ah, thank you. :)

doctor_eval 5y ago

I thought I read [0] that there will be experimental support for push notifications in 15.4. Perhaps keep any eye on advanced safari settings when it comes out?. At least there appears to be progress, and you may be able test it. [0] eg, https://www.macworld.com/article/610673/ios-15-4-safari-push-notifications.html https://www.macworld.com/article/610673/ios-15-4-safari-push...

alwillis 5y ago
It’s in there but but not enabled by default, meaning it’s still in beta. It’ll probably be officially announced at Apple’s World Wide Developers Conference in June.
- fouc 5y ago
  If we can enable it for our own purposes then that's big. Doesn't need to be on by default.
  - alwillis 5y ago
    If we can enable it for our own purposes then that's big. Doesn't need to be on by default. Agreed. Not being on by default likely means it's also buggy and incomplete.

hwers 5y ago

Personally I really hope they don't add this. Imagine how annoying to have to decline a "please turn on notifications" on every news site on your phone (which you're spammed with on desktop).

jimkleiber 5y ago
That would annoy me, too. Maybe they could have it only work for when you Add to Homescreen as a progressive web app, then it would be more opt-in.
- filoleg 5y ago
  This is actually the perfect compromise that I haven’t even thought of until you’ve mentioned it. Up until now, I was opposed to webkit push notifications for the same reason as the grandparent comment. Thank you for your comment.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    You're welcome! Yeah, I didn't even know that they could segregate it based on whether it was going through the Add to Homescreen option, but learned of it through the article: > Web App Manifest improvements include ensuring the browser always fetches the manifest file during page load instead of when the user chooses to “Add to Home Screen” from the Share menu.
  - joshstrange 5y ago
    Unfortunately Apple has crippled PWAs compared to the exact same code running in the browser on multiple occasions. Up until just about a year and a half or so ago you couldn't access a WebRTC stream from a PWA. The main use-case I needed this for was for a barcode scanner (which uses WebRTC under the hood) so my options were "deal with browser chrome" or "repackage into an app", I ended up doing the second (and to be fair that was my ultimate goal) but I would have preferred to skip dealing with that until later (prototyping is still faster on web for me, even with live dev builds on mobile).

naoqj 5y ago

xfalcox 5y ago

As the person working on PWA stuff on Discourse I can assure we will be adding push support in iOS as soon as it's ready. It's a shame this is taking so long on iOS devices...

jimkleiber 5y ago
Oh, hey! Yes, from what I've seen on Discourse, you all are probably more excited for this than I am. Thank you for doing this.

kitsunesoba 5y ago

Doesn’t supporting web push notifications involve having worker processes running in the background all the time to poll or keep a socket open for updates? I could see that dragging down battery life if one has notifications for more than just a small handful of PWAs enabled.

rabuse 5y ago
Native apps already do this...
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Disagreed; they don't. They delegate messaging to the Apple Push Notification service which is a single process that maintains a persistent connection (and receives messages on behalf of apps). Apps only get woken up when a notification actually arrives.

electric_muse 5y ago

While we don't see updates in this announcement, we may start seeing more because they're getting so much antitrust pressure [0]. Handicapping PWA support by not supporting push notifications works strongly against any arguments they would want to make about there being viable alternatives to listing in the app store. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/08/27/apple-agrees-to-app-store-settlement-with-small-developers-as-antitrust-challenges-loom/?sh=43ea42902003 https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/08/27/apple-a...

eyelidlessness 5y ago

I’m sure many of your users would welcome this feature but I’m personally grateful that I don’t get random notifications from websites.

Kbelicius 5y ago
If other users were able to get notifications from websites that doesn't mean that you would get them, especially not from random websites.
vetinari 5y ago
You would not; you must grant a permission to push notifications to the site first.
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  I mean, yeah, with a thing popping up on my screen to ask me for it. Which is fine if I, say, install it as an app (eg PWA or whatever), but super annoying on websites I’m visiting for the first time.
- dwaite 5y ago
  I'm grateful I don't get random popovers asking me whether or not I would approve a popup asking me to grant permissions for push notifications (because the scripts exit early on mobile safari)
  - vetinari 5y ago
    I don't feel overwhelmed by popups asking me to grant permissions for push notifications. But I'm glad that both sites where I care for them, can push them.

jmull 5y ago

I’m surprised by all the heat around the push notifications API. Is it really going to mean that much to web apps? I’m assuming it will work pretty much like push notifications on desktop, which is an awful UX.

stack_framer 5y ago
It would mean a great deal to all sorts of web apps! To provide just one example, I released a turn-based word game as a PWA two years ago. With no option for native push notifications on iOS, I decided to email players to notify them each time it was their turn in a game. Despite my domain having full support for DKIM, SPF, and DMARC, the usual problems of email were still a huge pain: Some domains (I'm looking at you hotmail.com) considered everything spam. In some email clients, the design of the emails looked totally wrong. Some of the more active players complained (rightfully so) that their inbox was filling up with these emails. Sadly, the overwhelming majority of games never got past one or two moves, in part because one of the two players didn't see the email that it was their turn. So yes, it would really, really help small businesses like mine if Safari would catch up here!
- dbbk 5y ago
  The point is it would be overwhelmingly used for spam, causing users to tune out of all notifications.

moltke 5y ago

>So here's to hoping the next iteration will. I've completely given up any kind of hope for iOS. I hoped for years iOS would do reasonable things like allowing side loading or multitasking or push notifications. Apple knows these things would improve the platform, they don't do them because it would cut into their profits. If these features are ever added to the platform they will be handicapped in some way that makes them almost useless.