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Linux Mint wiped out the boot loader on my Intel MacBook even though I was installing it on an external drive. I'm much older and agree that some modern Linux d

Linux Mint wiped out the boot loader on my Intel MacBook even though I was installing it on an external drive. I'm much older and agree that some modern Linux distributions are smoother than old-school Windows. I am just pointing out that Linux still requires a lot of unnecessary time suck due to it being in the "hobbyist tweaker" category.

smallerfish 5y ago
On a macbook you're in hobbyist territory unfortunately, with Linux. It doesn't even work on various recent years of macbooks, due to various ways Apple locked things down. Same goes for MS Surface hardware - you _can_ get it working, but there are more hoops to jump through. Try it on less locked down and more open hardware and you'll have more reliable results.
- t-writescode 5y ago
  On everything but the server, you're a hobbyist with Linux, unfortunately. It's perfectly fine and hobbyists make *amazing* things; but it remains very niche and tinkerer/hobbyist level. For everyone else, there's, Windows, Android, iOS, Chromebooks and Mac... I think in that order, even.
  - smallerfish 5y ago
    > On everything but the server, you're a hobbyist with Linux, unfortunately. That's far from true. On reasonably non-esoteric desktop hardware it's robust. On most laptops (unless you're using an external 4K screen) it's also perfectly fine.
    - t-writescode 5y ago
      We're using multiple definitions of "hobbyist". The act of using Linux outside of the server context for a personal machine is hobbyist. There are hobbyists within the hobby.
      - smallerfish 5y ago
        > The act of using Linux outside of the server context for a personal machine is hobbyist. I don't know how you arrive at that, unless you're trolling or haven't gone that deep on Linux. Linux is a far better development environment for many languages and ecosystems than Windows, and Mac (granted of course that you'll have a much better time on Windows with .NET, etc). I've been forced to use both now and again in various jobs over the years and have always gone back to Linux. Mac is better for non-programming office software, and Windows has better games support.
        t-writescode 5y ago
        I've never met a person that thinks Numbers is better than Excel. Word, too. Keynote is popular, of course, for Mac OS X. I made a poor definition of "personal machine". It did not include development. Developing software at home and for fun is, of course, a relatively niche hobby; but, I will grant you that Linux is a very, very good development environment. Mac OS X is pretty great for photographers and cinematographers, etc. At least as of 2020 (https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share...), Windows had 87% market share, Mac OS had about 10.7, and Linux had 1.7. IT looks like it was based around UserAgent checking? Which means it would include software developer's worker machines when they log into random websites, as well. You're using the words "better experience", etc; but, perhaps the problem here is that we're not using the same definition of "hobbyist". Product quality had nothing to do with hobbyist in my definition. It was more "support expectations".
        smallerfish 5y ago
        Excel ships on mac too, you know. > Developing software at home and for fun is, of course, a relatively niche hobby My multiple decade tech career is not exactly a hobby. Developing software, perhaps relatively niche among white collar workers. > perhaps the problem here is that we're not using the same definition of "hobbyist" I don't know what you're trying to prove, but smaller market share does not equate to hobby status. That's like saying that driving a Volvo is a hobby. Anyway, it's been a discussion but not particularly profitable, so have fun in another thread :)
    - xtracto 5y ago
      > On reasonably non-esoteric desktop hardware it's robust. On most laptops (unless you're using an external 4K screen) it's also perfectly fine. I hate when people trying to defend Linux prepend their "defenses" with "most X", "reasonably Y". Because once the the counterexamples of stuff not working in Linux show up, they just shield on "well, I didn't say all of them", "well, it works for me". Look, I've been a Linux developer and power user for 20 years, I've compiled Linux Kernels several time, I've tinkered with OSS, ALSA, Pulse, WinModem firmwares, USRobotic modems, SSD/Trim params, Bluetooth, printers, games, graphic cards, countless Linux versions and whatnot. My current PC is Linux Mint exclusively (I even play on it using steam ), but being realistic, it is NOT the case that Desktop Linux is "robust" on PCs or Laptops. There is always something, there will always going to be an issue that will make you have to tinker with it one way or another always.
      - emptysongglass 5y ago
        You wouldn't buy a computer that doesn't run Windows to try to duct tape Windows to it. I've been buying laptops with Linux supported from the manufacturer for 5 years now and I have fewer of the problems I do on my work Windows machine. Just to give you an idea of the problems on my P15s running Windows: * I have to run ThrottleStop to stop the built-in thermal limits from limiting my computer's performance to 500 MHz. * I have to run TpFanControl so my laptop doesn't sound like it's initiating a jet engine test at my desk (this is with or without ThrottleStop so don't blame it) * The Xbox app frequently freezes my entire machine (I wanted to try out Xbox Game Pass on a work machine, I know sorry) * My little nipple trackpoint will sometimes stop working, requiring a full system reboot * The Task Scheduler often freezes up * There's a printer driver that errors when updated by Windows Update. It prevents other system updates from being installed. I had to hide the driver, which requires a PowerShell script On my macOS work machine at my job previous to this one: * full system freezes when waking while docked to my Samsung ultrawide On my current Linux laptop, a XPS 13 that shipped with Ubuntu: * very rarely doesn't wake if it screen blanks without me closing the lid * I've had audio issues in Zoom a few times If you want to use Windows, that's fine but maybe just point out that you prefer using Windows and not subject the rest of us to your tirades against why Linux users are suffering under their own illusions. Those illusions are well-shared by our Windows-using counterparts.
  - lanstin 5y ago
    I buy laptops with Linux pre-installed. Works fine without tinkering. And vastly more performance on a given set of hardware than Windows (by observation of my kids that insisted on Windows).
maltelau 5y ago
One time Windows 10 wiped the boot loader on my desktop and threw a fit until I formatted the whole disk so it could place itself first unlike the partition I thought I had assigned it. Then I reinstalled windows 10 on the same computer a couple of years later and the installer couldn't even format my drive to install it, just threw bland "not working" errors until I manually formatted and installed the windows bootloader from a rescue drive. What's your point?
- djmips 5y ago
  Kind of like a vendetta. There's plenty of old stories of dumb Windows blowing up multi OS installs etc.
goosedragons 5y ago
Did you set it to install the bootloader on the external drive? I'm not so sure it's a bug as preference to put the bootloader on sda or whatever the first drive is. You can definitely change it. I've had MacOS kill a day trying to get gdb working but I could never get it properly working with codesign despite following multiple tutorials to do exactly that. I've also had Windows decide to do things like sliently update my tablet rotation driver to one that actually doesn't work with the hardware. They can all be unnecessary time sucks.
Epiphany21 5y ago
This sounds like a user error. Every Linux installer I've seen will ask which device you want the bootloader files on. Most will even warn of an unbootable install if you don't specify a valid EFI partition if you're installing to GPT disks. Making the EFI partition is also extremely easy. You just need to use a tool like GParted to make a 500MB FAT32 partition at the start of a drive somewhere. Apple Macs also have notoriously difficult firmware (only made to boot macOS or Windows via Bootcamp with special drivers). You should try something designed to cope with its pure awfulness like the rEFInd bootloader instead of GRUB or whatever systemd uses.

smallerfish 5y ago

On a macbook you're in hobbyist territory unfortunately, with Linux. It doesn't even work on various recent years of macbooks, due to various ways Apple locked things down. Same goes for MS Surface hardware - you _can_ get it working, but there are more hoops to jump through. Try it on less locked down and more open hardware and you'll have more reliable results.

t-writescode 5y ago
On everything but the server, you're a hobbyist with Linux, unfortunately. It's perfectly fine and hobbyists make *amazing* things; but it remains very niche and tinkerer/hobbyist level. For everyone else, there's, Windows, Android, iOS, Chromebooks and Mac... I think in that order, even.
- smallerfish 5y ago
  > On everything but the server, you're a hobbyist with Linux, unfortunately. That's far from true. On reasonably non-esoteric desktop hardware it's robust. On most laptops (unless you're using an external 4K screen) it's also perfectly fine.
  - t-writescode 5y ago
    We're using multiple definitions of "hobbyist". The act of using Linux outside of the server context for a personal machine is hobbyist. There are hobbyists within the hobby.
    - smallerfish 5y ago
      > The act of using Linux outside of the server context for a personal machine is hobbyist. I don't know how you arrive at that, unless you're trolling or haven't gone that deep on Linux. Linux is a far better development environment for many languages and ecosystems than Windows, and Mac (granted of course that you'll have a much better time on Windows with .NET, etc). I've been forced to use both now and again in various jobs over the years and have always gone back to Linux. Mac is better for non-programming office software, and Windows has better games support.
      - t-writescode 5y ago
        I've never met a person that thinks Numbers is better than Excel. Word, too. Keynote is popular, of course, for Mac OS X. I made a poor definition of "personal machine". It did not include development. Developing software at home and for fun is, of course, a relatively niche hobby; but, I will grant you that Linux is a very, very good development environment. Mac OS X is pretty great for photographers and cinematographers, etc. At least as of 2020 (https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share...), Windows had 87% market share, Mac OS had about 10.7, and Linux had 1.7. IT looks like it was based around UserAgent checking? Which means it would include software developer's worker machines when they log into random websites, as well. You're using the words "better experience", etc; but, perhaps the problem here is that we're not using the same definition of "hobbyist". Product quality had nothing to do with hobbyist in my definition. It was more "support expectations".
        smallerfish 5y ago
        Excel ships on mac too, you know. > Developing software at home and for fun is, of course, a relatively niche hobby My multiple decade tech career is not exactly a hobby. Developing software, perhaps relatively niche among white collar workers. > perhaps the problem here is that we're not using the same definition of "hobbyist" I don't know what you're trying to prove, but smaller market share does not equate to hobby status. That's like saying that driving a Volvo is a hobby. Anyway, it's been a discussion but not particularly profitable, so have fun in another thread :)
  - xtracto 5y ago
    > On reasonably non-esoteric desktop hardware it's robust. On most laptops (unless you're using an external 4K screen) it's also perfectly fine. I hate when people trying to defend Linux prepend their "defenses" with "most X", "reasonably Y". Because once the the counterexamples of stuff not working in Linux show up, they just shield on "well, I didn't say all of them", "well, it works for me". Look, I've been a Linux developer and power user for 20 years, I've compiled Linux Kernels several time, I've tinkered with OSS, ALSA, Pulse, WinModem firmwares, USRobotic modems, SSD/Trim params, Bluetooth, printers, games, graphic cards, countless Linux versions and whatnot. My current PC is Linux Mint exclusively (I even play on it using steam ), but being realistic, it is NOT the case that Desktop Linux is "robust" on PCs or Laptops. There is always something, there will always going to be an issue that will make you have to tinker with it one way or another always.
    - emptysongglass 5y ago
      You wouldn't buy a computer that doesn't run Windows to try to duct tape Windows to it. I've been buying laptops with Linux supported from the manufacturer for 5 years now and I have fewer of the problems I do on my work Windows machine. Just to give you an idea of the problems on my P15s running Windows: * I have to run ThrottleStop to stop the built-in thermal limits from limiting my computer's performance to 500 MHz. * I have to run TpFanControl so my laptop doesn't sound like it's initiating a jet engine test at my desk (this is with or without ThrottleStop so don't blame it) * The Xbox app frequently freezes my entire machine (I wanted to try out Xbox Game Pass on a work machine, I know sorry) * My little nipple trackpoint will sometimes stop working, requiring a full system reboot * The Task Scheduler often freezes up * There's a printer driver that errors when updated by Windows Update. It prevents other system updates from being installed. I had to hide the driver, which requires a PowerShell script On my macOS work machine at my job previous to this one: * full system freezes when waking while docked to my Samsung ultrawide On my current Linux laptop, a XPS 13 that shipped with Ubuntu: * very rarely doesn't wake if it screen blanks without me closing the lid * I've had audio issues in Zoom a few times If you want to use Windows, that's fine but maybe just point out that you prefer using Windows and not subject the rest of us to your tirades against why Linux users are suffering under their own illusions. Those illusions are well-shared by our Windows-using counterparts.
- lanstin 5y ago
  I buy laptops with Linux pre-installed. Works fine without tinkering. And vastly more performance on a given set of hardware than Windows (by observation of my kids that insisted on Windows).

maltelau 5y ago

One time Windows 10 wiped the boot loader on my desktop and threw a fit until I formatted the whole disk so it could place itself first unlike the partition I thought I had assigned it. Then I reinstalled windows 10 on the same computer a couple of years later and the installer couldn't even format my drive to install it, just threw bland "not working" errors until I manually formatted and installed the windows bootloader from a rescue drive. What's your point?

djmips 5y ago
Kind of like a vendetta. There's plenty of old stories of dumb Windows blowing up multi OS installs etc.

goosedragons 5y ago

Did you set it to install the bootloader on the external drive? I'm not so sure it's a bug as preference to put the bootloader on sda or whatever the first drive is. You can definitely change it. I've had MacOS kill a day trying to get gdb working but I could never get it properly working with codesign despite following multiple tutorials to do exactly that. I've also had Windows decide to do things like sliently update my tablet rotation driver to one that actually doesn't work with the hardware. They can all be unnecessary time sucks.

Epiphany21 5y ago

This sounds like a user error. Every Linux installer I've seen will ask which device you want the bootloader files on. Most will even warn of an unbootable install if you don't specify a valid EFI partition if you're installing to GPT disks. Making the EFI partition is also extremely easy. You just need to use a tool like GParted to make a 500MB FAT32 partition at the start of a drive somewhere. Apple Macs also have notoriously difficult firmware (only made to boot macOS or Windows via Bootcamp with special drivers). You should try something designed to cope with its pure awfulness like the rEFInd bootloader instead of GRUB or whatever systemd uses.