6 ms·

> Students getting caught in mass cheating or deploying sly means to not get caught is not uncommon in India where competition is fierce as aspirants outnumber

> Students getting caught in mass cheating or deploying sly means to not get caught is not uncommon in India where competition is fierce as aspirants outnumber the number of vacancies for a job and seats in colleges for courses. I'd like to read a long form piece on this subject. What's being done about it? India is a huge country, they need specialists no doubt!

YossarianFrPrez 5y ago
"The Mystery of India's Deadly Exam Scam" is an excellent piece on the subject: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/the-mystery-of-indias-deadly-exam-scam https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/the-mystery-of...
genedan 5y ago
Economically, this puzzles me. I'd think that if quantity supplied were so high the equilibrium wage would drop to the point where excess people would stop trying to become doctors, or at least to the point where surgically implanting things wouldn't be worth the hassle. Is there something in India propping up wages for those professions?
- sdeframond 5y ago
  Maybe the number of licenses issued is limited by law? It is the case in France for example.
- thawaya3113 5y ago
  What matters is not the number of doctors but the number of doctors per capita. India has both low number of doctors per capita, and low supply for educating doctors.
- SQueeeeeL 5y ago
  You'd also think the 40 hour work week would be a thing of the past with automation. People are just very good at building walked gardens and elite communities while forcing others to be "lower class"
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I would bet the demand for people highly educated and trained in medicine far exceeds the number of people able or willing to become highly educated and trained in medicine.
    - engineeringwoke 5y ago
      What would make you think that? The supply of doctors is artificially restricted in every country that I know of; it's pretty much a universal mark of privilege. In the United States, residency spots basically don't grow and it's very good for over-allocating doctor's salaries. Same in Germany, where they love their well-paid doctors and big hospitals.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Based on how much discipline (or lack thereof) people have to learn. Or maybe simply lack the innate ability. Not even all the people motivated enough to pass all the hurdles to get into medical school graduate from medical school. That is not the perfect proof, but I am also coloring it with my anecdotal data about which percentage of kids were enthusiastic to learn any advanced topics in school such as math, physics, chemistry, much less memorize a metric ton of advanced biology information. It is true that supply is artificially restricted in the US, of course. In many ways, not least which is an unnecessarily expensive and lengthy certification process. But I cannot imagine anyone with the average discipline being able to come close to a full fledged MD.
        SkittyDog 5y ago
        I can understand why you might think this, but you're factually incorrect in this case. In the United States, the supply of medical doctors is artificially limited by state laws that prohibit the practice of medicine without a license. Licensing requires successful completion of an accredited medical residency program, which on turn requires completing an MD degree from an accredited medical school. The American Medical Association and similar state-level groups effectively control the number of residency and med school slots by controlling the accreditation process. Most of the rest of the world has similar systems in place, including India. On the one hand, the AMA system has been described as a means of guaranteeing the quality of doctors, and preventing unsuspecting patients from being hurt, killed, or defrauded by poorly trained doctors. On the other hand, it's also been described as cartel designed to allow doctors to charge inflated prices for medical care, by limiting the supply of doctors, and extracting unreasonable rent from the public. Most economists would agree that both descriptions are basically correct.
- pempem 5y ago
  The ability to immigrate elsewhere with incentives skills from countries not incentivizing the growth of their own medical field for a number of reasons.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- SkittyDog 5y ago
  Because it's not a "free market". The supply of doctors is legally limited... It's illegal to practice medicine without being licensed. And the number of licenses granted is limited. The license limits could be direct, like taxi medallions in New York City... Or the limits can be indirect, like how the AMA defines the number of medical residencies in the United States. Even in supposedly "free market" countries like the United States, we often have significant restrictions on all sorts of markets. The reasons vary.
supercheetah 5y ago
The hyper competitiveness seems to be a problem. I'm not sure what the answer is, but students need a way to be able fail honestly without shame so that when they do succeed, they do so without needing to cheat.
- kodah 5y ago
  He'd been taking the test for 11 years, that seems like allowing them to fail honestly.
  - to1y 5y ago
    He started at the university 11 years ago.
- firebird 5y ago
  It's a cultural thing. It's literally a do or die situation for everyone to do well in school. Or you would have shamed your family. But, things are getting better, as cultural expectations are subsiding. I think in the next couple decades, India will be on par with the West in terms of social expectations as the average gross income and GDP of the country continues to go up. I think China is starting to see the same thing now.
conradev 5y ago
This is a problem in the US: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-ama-limit-the-number-of-doctors-to-increase-current-doctors-salaries https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-a...
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  The doctor shortage in the US is because current law effectively limits the number of residency slots to 100k, pushing out foreign graduates who may have earned a spot and causing medical schools to expand slower than they would like due to fear of not matching graduates.
gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
It’s unfortunate because the exam cheater is such a prevalent stereotype, yet I have worked with many people from India who were deep thinkers with a love of their subject. I wonder how many potential visionaries get filtered by association with these cheaters as well as more traditional racism.

YossarianFrPrez 5y ago

"The Mystery of India's Deadly Exam Scam" is an excellent piece on the subject: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/the-mystery-of-indias-deadly-exam-scam https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/the-mystery-of...

genedan 5y ago

Economically, this puzzles me. I'd think that if quantity supplied were so high the equilibrium wage would drop to the point where excess people would stop trying to become doctors, or at least to the point where surgically implanting things wouldn't be worth the hassle. Is there something in India propping up wages for those professions?

sdeframond 5y ago
Maybe the number of licenses issued is limited by law? It is the case in France for example.
thawaya3113 5y ago
What matters is not the number of doctors but the number of doctors per capita. India has both low number of doctors per capita, and low supply for educating doctors.
SQueeeeeL 5y ago
You'd also think the 40 hour work week would be a thing of the past with automation. People are just very good at building walked gardens and elite communities while forcing others to be "lower class"
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I would bet the demand for people highly educated and trained in medicine far exceeds the number of people able or willing to become highly educated and trained in medicine.
  - engineeringwoke 5y ago
    What would make you think that? The supply of doctors is artificially restricted in every country that I know of; it's pretty much a universal mark of privilege. In the United States, residency spots basically don't grow and it's very good for over-allocating doctor's salaries. Same in Germany, where they love their well-paid doctors and big hospitals.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Based on how much discipline (or lack thereof) people have to learn. Or maybe simply lack the innate ability. Not even all the people motivated enough to pass all the hurdles to get into medical school graduate from medical school. That is not the perfect proof, but I am also coloring it with my anecdotal data about which percentage of kids were enthusiastic to learn any advanced topics in school such as math, physics, chemistry, much less memorize a metric ton of advanced biology information. It is true that supply is artificially restricted in the US, of course. In many ways, not least which is an unnecessarily expensive and lengthy certification process. But I cannot imagine anyone with the average discipline being able to come close to a full fledged MD.
      - SkittyDog 5y ago
        I can understand why you might think this, but you're factually incorrect in this case. In the United States, the supply of medical doctors is artificially limited by state laws that prohibit the practice of medicine without a license. Licensing requires successful completion of an accredited medical residency program, which on turn requires completing an MD degree from an accredited medical school. The American Medical Association and similar state-level groups effectively control the number of residency and med school slots by controlling the accreditation process. Most of the rest of the world has similar systems in place, including India. On the one hand, the AMA system has been described as a means of guaranteeing the quality of doctors, and preventing unsuspecting patients from being hurt, killed, or defrauded by poorly trained doctors. On the other hand, it's also been described as cartel designed to allow doctors to charge inflated prices for medical care, by limiting the supply of doctors, and extracting unreasonable rent from the public. Most economists would agree that both descriptions are basically correct.
pempem 5y ago
The ability to immigrate elsewhere with incentives skills from countries not incentivizing the growth of their own medical field for a number of reasons.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
SkittyDog 5y ago
Because it's not a "free market". The supply of doctors is legally limited... It's illegal to practice medicine without being licensed. And the number of licenses granted is limited. The license limits could be direct, like taxi medallions in New York City... Or the limits can be indirect, like how the AMA defines the number of medical residencies in the United States. Even in supposedly "free market" countries like the United States, we often have significant restrictions on all sorts of markets. The reasons vary.

supercheetah 5y ago

The hyper competitiveness seems to be a problem. I'm not sure what the answer is, but students need a way to be able fail honestly without shame so that when they do succeed, they do so without needing to cheat.

kodah 5y ago
He'd been taking the test for 11 years, that seems like allowing them to fail honestly.
- to1y 5y ago
  He started at the university 11 years ago.
firebird 5y ago
It's a cultural thing. It's literally a do or die situation for everyone to do well in school. Or you would have shamed your family. But, things are getting better, as cultural expectations are subsiding. I think in the next couple decades, India will be on par with the West in terms of social expectations as the average gross income and GDP of the country continues to go up. I think China is starting to see the same thing now.

conradev 5y ago

This is a problem in the US: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-ama-limit-the-number-of-doctors-to-increase-current-doctors-salaries https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-a...

colinmhayes 5y ago
The doctor shortage in the US is because current law effectively limits the number of residency slots to 100k, pushing out foreign graduates who may have earned a spot and causing medical schools to expand slower than they would like due to fear of not matching graduates.

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago

It’s unfortunate because the exam cheater is such a prevalent stereotype, yet I have worked with many people from India who were deep thinkers with a love of their subject. I wonder how many potential visionaries get filtered by association with these cheaters as well as more traditional racism.