6 ms·

Since threads about topics like this often have a very similar vibe regardless of forum, I would like to make one ask: Please, remember that actual people live

Since threads about topics like this often have a very similar vibe regardless of forum, I would like to make one ask: Please, remember that actual people live here and not just bits displayed on a screen. Also remember that these are incredibly complex problems and that any solution you type into this text box is not going to be easy to implement, easy to track, or easy to push to resolution. Life is not a set of Jira tickets. I have lived inside the city limits of Seattle virtually my entire life. Except for a brief stint in Texas for work, Seattle has been home. Seattle, like all cities, has its warts and problems. The absolutely staggering level of income and wealth inequality we have experienced in the last decade has taken all of those problems and multiplied them tenfold. Seattle is a beautiful city with a lot to offer...which is why tens of thousands of people move here every year. Should there be crime on 3rd Ave? No. Should there be crime anywhere? No. But, finally, please remember that agendas exist and are being pushed and, bluntly, Amazon has a lot of arrows in its quiver if it wants to make a proper good influence on our shared hometown. Odd that it so rarely uses those arrows, except for press releases.

girzel 5y ago
> The absolutely staggering level of income and wealth inequality we have experienced in the last decade has taken all of those problems and multiplied them tenfold. This is the key, to me. Amazon moving out because of crime seems like some kind of full-circle irony, when they have contributed so much to that inequality in the first place. I grew up in Seattle, and live here now. Crime and homelessness has been an issue for a decade or so, and it's become a much bigger issue (more spread out than it was) since COVID. None of that indicates getting "tougher" on crime/homelessness as a solution to our problems. Not to me, anyway.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  > This is the key, to me. Amazon moving out because of crime seems like some kind of full-circle irony, when they have contributed so much to that inequality in the first place. The greatest irony of all is that municipalities continue to fall for this trick. American corporations have been doing it for nearly a century now, and Amazon is only the latest to pick up the proud tradition.
seaourfreed 5y ago
Startups and people are moving from Seattle to Bellevue. The eastside is amazing. No crime problems, clean, best schools, etc. Amazon has 16 high rise buildings under construction in Bellevue. Facebook has a massive campus in Bellevue. Microsoft is on the edge of Bellevue. Google's Kirkland campus is up the road 2.2 miles north from Bellevue. Tons of tech companies of all size there. Amazing downtown.
- vkou 5y ago
  It's easy for Bellevue to be clean when its solution to dealing with homeless people is arresting them, and releasing them in Seattle.
  - seaourfreed 5y ago
    Homeless people prefer Seattle. After they are arrested for violent crimes, Seattle releases them back to being free within ~3 hours. The homeless love Seattle. Just measure by listening and counting to how many gunshots you hear. People subscribe and watch how many fall dead, because this twitter account shows the murders. See in real time. https://twitter.com/HomicideSeattle https://twitter.com/HomicideSeattle
    - vkou 5y ago
      Of course they prefer Seattle, unless they are hanging out in Magnolia, they aren't going to be arrested with the explicit purpose of getting dumped somewhere else. It pulls double-duty, through shelters and services because NIMBY's in the suburbs are happy to export all their problems to it. And most homeless don't regularly get arrested for violent crimes, but it's incredibly telling that you immediately turn the conversation to the most problematic minority, and ignore how your suburb shits on the other 90% of them. Just because you're homeless doesn't make you a violent criminal. (Just like how if you're from the Eastside doesn't immediately make you a lot of other unsavory things.) There are ~11,000 homeless people in King County. Most of them aren't violent criminals. How many does Bellevue house? Your fair share is ~700, are you meeting it? Seattle's fair share is ~3,400 - or it would be, if you weren't shirking yours.
vkou 5y ago
The biggest reason for the increase in crime downtown is because nobody works there due to pandemic WFH... And because Seattle's planners built most of it an office park, with no good reason for anyone to be there outside 9-5. This is, of course, a positive feedback loop. When normal people have zero reason to be in an area, criminals get emboldened, and normal people have even fewer incentives to go there.
- sudosteph 5y ago
  I don't doubt it's worse now, but as someone who lived a few blocks from that area for about ~5 years (2014-2019), I'm skeptical that the presence of office workers or tourists was really dissuading crime in a meaningful way. It seemed to keep getting worse even when the city was packed was people. The 9-5 thing was annoying from a quality of living perspective, but as far as I can tell Bellevue is the same way, and they didn't have nearly the level of street crime of Seattle. I've come to the conclusion that police presence and enforcement is the only thing that would make a dent a this point.
- nomel 5y ago
  In the past, society would create a group of people that would monitor for crime, investigate crimes and arrest criminals, guard the streets by patrolling, etc. But, since we have no modern way of doing that, apparently the solution is to wait for all but criminals to move out.
  - immibis 5y ago
    Did it work?
  - vkou 5y ago
    That group of people is still on the payroll, with no changes to their budget in 2021, or 2022. They choose how they want to spend their time, and the choice they have largely made is 'we don't respond to much of anything, but when we do, we try to make our response far more violent and/or racist than it has to be.' The SPD didn't get put under a decade-long federal injunction because it was good at doing its job.
baby 5y ago
It's really happening everywhere, the office district in SF is filled with crime. I really felt bad (pre-covid) for twitter employees, for example. It was the same with downtown Chicago (the loop) where I couldn't stay late at work because it would get dangerous to walk late at night there.
- katbyte 5y ago
  It seems to be a very west cost thing (live in Vancouver and its the same) - I cannot speak for south of the border but other provinces send their homeless here & they seek out Vancouver not just for the social programs because it is the most mild winter in the country. the homeless problem here isn't so much "Vancouvers" as "Canadas"
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    The west coast has a very hospitable climate. No harsh winters and no hot, humid summers. West coast states are also subject to a court ruling not allowing them to simply ban sleeping on sidewalks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Boise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Boise
  - tharne 5y ago
    It's worse on the West coast, for sure, but crime is way up in NYC and other East Coast cities too. It know it's somewhat gauche to point out the obvious, but cities and locations that have taken anti-police measures are tending to see the highest increases in crime.
    - overtonwhy 5y ago
      Small blips. If you look at anything long term the stats clearly trend to less crime https://www.bbc.com/news/57581270.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/57581270.amp
      - tharne 5y ago
        Sure, if you compare it to some of the worst decades on record. But I don't think our standard of success for public safety should be, "Well, it could be worse".
pointerout 5y ago
> But, finally, please remember that agendas exist and are being pushed and, followed ironically by: > bluntly, Amazon has a lot of arrows in its quiver if it wants to make a proper good influence on our shared hometown. Odd that it so rarely uses those arrows, except for press releases. and now to the meat. > remember that actual people live here and not just bits displayed on a screen. Also remember that these are incredibly complex problems and that any solution you type into this text box is not going to be easy to implement, easy to track, or easy to push to resolution. The same is true for every story posted here. Please stop trying to deflate the failures of Seattle politicians and activists by attempting to humanise the story past a reasonable point. Repeated apologism doesn't improve things for anyone.
nostromo 5y ago
Inequality didn't cause this. Inequality didn't suddenly spring up mid-2020. Defund the police did. Our prosecutors openly saying they wouldn't prosecute all but the most serious crimes did. Our police force shrinking did. And police deciding it was better to turn a blind eye to crime than risk going viral did. People blaming this on all their favorite pre-existing issues (racism, evil police, inequality, etc.) means the issues will not be fixed and things will get worse before they get better. Seattleites as a people just aren't serious enough to fix the issues. It took Seattle a few decades to make downtown a welcoming and safe place again after the bad ol' days. And then we undid it in 24 months. It's madness.
- time_to_smile 5y ago
  > Inequality didn't suddenly spring up mid-2020. Defund the police did. But this is a problem that has perpetually growing in Seattle. There were growing tent cities in the area long before "defund the police". If you went to Seattle in the 90s you would see many of these same issues. Yes things are getting worse now, but so are the income related issues as well. The idea that this is primarily driven by something happening in recent years is a bit ridiculous.
- techsupporter 5y ago
  We didn't defund the police; Seattle PD took an 18% budget cut that was largely the result of declining to enlarge the department and moving some tasks, like parking enforcement, out to other departments. Also, SPD has something like 230 open positions for officers. That said, we would prefer that they not take the tack of "shoot first and dodge OPA later," if they wouldn't mind. "Our prosecutors" is not the City of Seattle. The Seattle city attorney does not have the authority to prosecute anything above simple misdemeanors. It's up to the county who gets prosecuted and who doesn't, and King County has said that county policy is that you can't arrest people into better conditions. > safe place again after the bad ol' days. And then we undid it in 24 months Pardon? Are you really saying that downtown is less safe and less inviting than downtown in the 80s and 90s? You are aware that the waterfront largely did not exist back then, that violent crime in 98101 was almost six times its current amount back then? That the number of people living in downtown has rebounded from its COVID-induced trough and is now 4% higher than before? I have lived through those "bad ol' days" and also the "good times" you mentioned and to say that downtown is undone and worse now than it was before, to quote an esteemed colleague, "is madness."
alanh 5y ago
No, sorry, 'income and wealth inequality' is not the major driver of the west coast's skyrocketing crime & grime. (I do think these inequalities' growing natures are problems.) The major driver is a population whose beliefs and guilts cause them to choose politicians and policies that act as magnets for addicts, and a refusal to take crime seriously, much less be tough on it. Sane, good people who cannot afford to be in $WestCoastCity do not move into a tent and acquire meth habits. They move away, somewhere they can afford. I know, I’ve lived with these people, I’ve been these people. Sane-but-not-well-off people leaving is probably harmful for $WestCoastCity's culture and economy, but it is not where the blight comes from. It’s drugs (see: San Fransicko) and crime-tolerant laws & attitudes.
- sharkweek 5y ago
  So what should we do? Build more jails and throw all the addicts in them?
  - alanh 5y ago
    Building more jails shouldn't be necessary — but yes. Offer the choice of jail or rehab. (This is what e.g. Michael Shellenberger is calling for, as well as recovered drug addicts I know and respect.) This is has a dramatically better chance of saving the addict than does the status quo of bouncing them back from death with Narcan so they can do the same thing tomorrow… and the day after… and the day after… until they die.
    - BaseballPhysics 5y ago
      A few years ago I noticed an interesting trend in music in that it was going back and reviving old styles from the 1970s and 1980s. And like the 70s and 80s, it worked when it worked, but when it didn't, it really didn't. It's interesting seeing the same revivalist trend in public policy, particularly with respect to law enforcement and drug policies. Like those musicians, I can only surmise that younger generations think, for whatever reason, that they can do it better this time.
- girzel 5y ago
eadmund 5y ago
> The absolutely staggering level of income and wealth inequality we have experienced in the last decade has taken all of those problems and multiplied them tenfold. An increase in inequality does not necessarily mean an increase in absolute poverty (it means an increase in relative poverty); indeed, an increase in inequality may very well go hand-in-hand with a decrease in absolute poverty. An increase in inequality does not justify, or explain, an increase in crime: folks might very well be better off in absolute terms after inequality increases. There is something other than inequality alone which explains the problems in Seattle.
- na85 5y ago
  - wara23arish 5y ago
    Not the previous commenter, but from what I understand is this. Previously: Poor purchasing power = 5 Rich purchasing power = 100 Now: Poor purchasing power = 15 Rich purchasing power = 500 This means even though the wealth inequality increased, the poor still are better off than before. Its not suggesting that BECAUSE of wealth inequality the poor are better off.
- danShumway 5y ago
  > An increase in inequality does not necessarily mean an increase in absolute poverty (it means an increase in relative poverty) Agreed, but... sometimes inequality and poverty do happen at the same time. Definitely not always, but is it actually the case in Seattle that there has been a decrease in absolute poverty? Would you say that inequality has skyrocketed in Seattle but the absolute purchasing power for people on things like housing, food, etc, has been unaffected? I am pretty skeptical. > folks might very well be better off in absolute terms after inequality increases. "Might be" is doing a lot of work here. You're right, they might be, but they might also not be. Last I checked Seattle has some of the most expensive housing in the country, and last time I visited I remember prices basically being through the roof on a ton of goods and services. Maybe things have gotten better since then? But I'm not sure I buy that everyone in Seattle is better off but a small portion of the population has gotten very rich so it's just relative inequality that's increased -- it seems to me from the outside looking in that the rising tide has not only not raised all boats in the area, it has in fact gone over some people's heads who were unable to swim with it. Which is definitely not to say that poverty is the only problem that Seattle has, but I'd be very surprised to see numbers that indicate living in Seattle has gotten more affordable over time[0]. I agree that rising inequality does not necessarily mean rising poverty, but I would love to see some numbers saying that Seattle in specific does not have a rising poverty problem, my prior is that it probably does. ---- [0]: Of course, feel free to surprise me if those numbers exist, I haven't checked them so I might very well be wrong, it's dangerous for me to trust my intuition too much on these things.
BaseballPhysics 5y ago
> Since threads about topics like this often have a very similar vibe regardless of forum... Judging by the replies you've received, I'm guessing this didn't work out the way you were hoping... Though, on the bright side, it did introduce me to the epithet "San Fransicko" which, while not particularly clever, is very mildly amusing.
LeFantome 5y ago
Wealth inequality may explain an increase in property crime. I do not follow how a rapid increase in violent crime factors in. Resentment is another motivation I understand but it seems a stretch to attribute baseball bats to the head as being a direct consequence. I suppose if you pair it with a social messaging narrative that true “class warfare” is ok you might be able to get there. It seems more likely though that the core driving force lies elsewhere.
- immibis 5y ago
  Resentment, attitude to the law, stability, education level. Stuff like that. You grow up homeless since 14, you will not be the most stable genius.
screye 5y ago
> The absolutely staggering level of income and wealth inequality we have experienced in the last decade has taken all of those problems and multiplied them tenfold I apologize for my curtness, but I don't buy this. Seattle's lack of homes has to do with NIMBYs blocking upzoning efforts. The city is mostly R1 zoned, and most homeowners have been here for more than a decade. The new 'rich' transplants are mostly renting in what is a massive wealth transfer to historic homeowners in the Seattle area. The worst of Seattle's problems also coincide strongly with the leadership being elected into office. HN-users frequently complain about terrible policies in middle-American cities and states. Some times, a complaint is a complaint. A pseudo anonymous forum should not require its participants to sugarcoat their feelings about living in a city. > incredibly complex problems I agree there. But, there is low hanging fruit that the city can start with. > Seattle is a beautiful city with a lot to offer This is part of why my criticism is so sharp. The squandered potential is what hurts. I will be honest, I do not complain about problems in desert cities like Phoenix or rust belt cities in economic ruin. They find themselves in irreversible long-term quagmires. But, cities like SF and Seattle that are flourishing, have all the potential in the world to have liveable city-cores like some east-coast cities or other global cities. Seattle is gorgeous, with amazing food and potential for liveliness. But, the complete reluctance to acknowledge the problem and the possibility of some obvious solutions is agonizing. I will lay them out in as clear words as possible. 1. Being weak-on-crime & homeless-friendly encourages more crime & homeless migrants. 2. A rapidly growing city needs rapidly growing housing. Some supporting proof of seattle's homelessness problems in comparison to peer cities: [1] High base and increase in Seattle homelessness - http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.ht... [2] High rate of mentally ill homeless in Seattle - https://dynomight.net/homeless-crisis/ https://dynomight.net/homeless-crisis/ (specifically: https://dynomight.net/img/homeless-crisis/coc/WA-Seattle%20King%20County.svg https://dynomight.net/img/homeless-crisis/coc/WA-Seattle%20K...) [3] Mind-bogglingly high rate of meth use in Seattle - https://dynomight.net/img/p2p-meth/metabolites.svg https://dynomight.net/img/p2p-meth/metabolites.svg
immibis 5y ago
Also remember that the criminals are people and not just mindless crime machines, and there are (sad) reasons why they commit crime.
adamrezich 5y ago
societal cohesion and trust have value. something about high-density urban environments seems to cause people to forget this and give misplaced, overly-enthusiastic empathy to criminals, which causes societal decay. this should not be controversial, but it is. furthermore, one would expect that tacit admissions that things have become untenable (such as this move by Amazon, or anyone who ends up moving out of these cities) would give cause to reevaluate one's worldview, but for whatever reason this does not seem to occur, generally. combine these factors with political entrenchment and the only solution for the individual is to recognize these issues, move to somewhere with lower population density, and don't make the same mistake twice when it comes to voting for bills and elected officials, and, more generally, in being unafraid to value societal cohesion and trust, regardless of whether it's politically popular to do so.

girzel 5y ago

> The absolutely staggering level of income and wealth inequality we have experienced in the last decade has taken all of those problems and multiplied them tenfold. This is the key, to me. Amazon moving out because of crime seems like some kind of full-circle irony, when they have contributed so much to that inequality in the first place. I grew up in Seattle, and live here now. Crime and homelessness has been an issue for a decade or so, and it's become a much bigger issue (more spread out than it was) since COVID. None of that indicates getting "tougher" on crime/homelessness as a solution to our problems. Not to me, anyway.

woodruffw 5y ago
> This is the key, to me. Amazon moving out because of crime seems like some kind of full-circle irony, when they have contributed so much to that inequality in the first place. The greatest irony of all is that municipalities continue to fall for this trick. American corporations have been doing it for nearly a century now, and Amazon is only the latest to pick up the proud tradition.

seaourfreed 5y ago

Startups and people are moving from Seattle to Bellevue. The eastside is amazing. No crime problems, clean, best schools, etc. Amazon has 16 high rise buildings under construction in Bellevue. Facebook has a massive campus in Bellevue. Microsoft is on the edge of Bellevue. Google's Kirkland campus is up the road 2.2 miles north from Bellevue. Tons of tech companies of all size there. Amazing downtown.

vkou 5y ago
It's easy for Bellevue to be clean when its solution to dealing with homeless people is arresting them, and releasing them in Seattle.
- seaourfreed 5y ago
  Homeless people prefer Seattle. After they are arrested for violent crimes, Seattle releases them back to being free within ~3 hours. The homeless love Seattle. Just measure by listening and counting to how many gunshots you hear. People subscribe and watch how many fall dead, because this twitter account shows the murders. See in real time. https://twitter.com/HomicideSeattle https://twitter.com/HomicideSeattle
  - vkou 5y ago
    Of course they prefer Seattle, unless they are hanging out in Magnolia, they aren't going to be arrested with the explicit purpose of getting dumped somewhere else. It pulls double-duty, through shelters and services because NIMBY's in the suburbs are happy to export all their problems to it. And most homeless don't regularly get arrested for violent crimes, but it's incredibly telling that you immediately turn the conversation to the most problematic minority, and ignore how your suburb shits on the other 90% of them. Just because you're homeless doesn't make you a violent criminal. (Just like how if you're from the Eastside doesn't immediately make you a lot of other unsavory things.) There are ~11,000 homeless people in King County. Most of them aren't violent criminals. How many does Bellevue house? Your fair share is ~700, are you meeting it? Seattle's fair share is ~3,400 - or it would be, if you weren't shirking yours.

vkou 5y ago

The biggest reason for the increase in crime downtown is because nobody works there due to pandemic WFH... And because Seattle's planners built most of it an office park, with no good reason for anyone to be there outside 9-5. This is, of course, a positive feedback loop. When normal people have zero reason to be in an area, criminals get emboldened, and normal people have even fewer incentives to go there.

sudosteph 5y ago
I don't doubt it's worse now, but as someone who lived a few blocks from that area for about ~5 years (2014-2019), I'm skeptical that the presence of office workers or tourists was really dissuading crime in a meaningful way. It seemed to keep getting worse even when the city was packed was people. The 9-5 thing was annoying from a quality of living perspective, but as far as I can tell Bellevue is the same way, and they didn't have nearly the level of street crime of Seattle. I've come to the conclusion that police presence and enforcement is the only thing that would make a dent a this point.
nomel 5y ago
In the past, society would create a group of people that would monitor for crime, investigate crimes and arrest criminals, guard the streets by patrolling, etc. But, since we have no modern way of doing that, apparently the solution is to wait for all but criminals to move out.
- immibis 5y ago
  Did it work?
- vkou 5y ago
  That group of people is still on the payroll, with no changes to their budget in 2021, or 2022. They choose how they want to spend their time, and the choice they have largely made is 'we don't respond to much of anything, but when we do, we try to make our response far more violent and/or racist than it has to be.' The SPD didn't get put under a decade-long federal injunction because it was good at doing its job.

baby 5y ago

It's really happening everywhere, the office district in SF is filled with crime. I really felt bad (pre-covid) for twitter employees, for example. It was the same with downtown Chicago (the loop) where I couldn't stay late at work because it would get dangerous to walk late at night there.

katbyte 5y ago
It seems to be a very west cost thing (live in Vancouver and its the same) - I cannot speak for south of the border but other provinces send their homeless here & they seek out Vancouver not just for the social programs because it is the most mild winter in the country. the homeless problem here isn't so much "Vancouvers" as "Canadas"
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  The west coast has a very hospitable climate. No harsh winters and no hot, humid summers. West coast states are also subject to a court ruling not allowing them to simply ban sleeping on sidewalks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Boise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Boise
- tharne 5y ago
  It's worse on the West coast, for sure, but crime is way up in NYC and other East Coast cities too. It know it's somewhat gauche to point out the obvious, but cities and locations that have taken anti-police measures are tending to see the highest increases in crime.
  - overtonwhy 5y ago
    Small blips. If you look at anything long term the stats clearly trend to less crime https://www.bbc.com/news/57581270.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/57581270.amp
    - tharne 5y ago
      Sure, if you compare it to some of the worst decades on record. But I don't think our standard of success for public safety should be, "Well, it could be worse".

pointerout 5y ago

> But, finally, please remember that agendas exist and are being pushed and, followed ironically by: > bluntly, Amazon has a lot of arrows in its quiver if it wants to make a proper good influence on our shared hometown. Odd that it so rarely uses those arrows, except for press releases. and now to the meat. > remember that actual people live here and not just bits displayed on a screen. Also remember that these are incredibly complex problems and that any solution you type into this text box is not going to be easy to implement, easy to track, or easy to push to resolution. The same is true for every story posted here. Please stop trying to deflate the failures of Seattle politicians and activists by attempting to humanise the story past a reasonable point. Repeated apologism doesn't improve things for anyone.

nostromo 5y ago

Inequality didn't cause this. Inequality didn't suddenly spring up mid-2020. Defund the police did. Our prosecutors openly saying they wouldn't prosecute all but the most serious crimes did. Our police force shrinking did. And police deciding it was better to turn a blind eye to crime than risk going viral did. People blaming this on all their favorite pre-existing issues (racism, evil police, inequality, etc.) means the issues will not be fixed and things will get worse before they get better. Seattleites as a people just aren't serious enough to fix the issues. It took Seattle a few decades to make downtown a welcoming and safe place again after the bad ol' days. And then we undid it in 24 months. It's madness.

time_to_smile 5y ago
> Inequality didn't suddenly spring up mid-2020. Defund the police did. But this is a problem that has perpetually growing in Seattle. There were growing tent cities in the area long before "defund the police". If you went to Seattle in the 90s you would see many of these same issues. Yes things are getting worse now, but so are the income related issues as well. The idea that this is primarily driven by something happening in recent years is a bit ridiculous.
techsupporter 5y ago
We didn't defund the police; Seattle PD took an 18% budget cut that was largely the result of declining to enlarge the department and moving some tasks, like parking enforcement, out to other departments. Also, SPD has something like 230 open positions for officers. That said, we would prefer that they not take the tack of "shoot first and dodge OPA later," if they wouldn't mind. "Our prosecutors" is not the City of Seattle. The Seattle city attorney does not have the authority to prosecute anything above simple misdemeanors. It's up to the county who gets prosecuted and who doesn't, and King County has said that county policy is that you can't arrest people into better conditions. > safe place again after the bad ol' days. And then we undid it in 24 months Pardon? Are you really saying that downtown is less safe and less inviting than downtown in the 80s and 90s? You are aware that the waterfront largely did not exist back then, that violent crime in 98101 was almost six times its current amount back then? That the number of people living in downtown has rebounded from its COVID-induced trough and is now 4% higher than before? I have lived through those "bad ol' days" and also the "good times" you mentioned and to say that downtown is undone and worse now than it was before, to quote an esteemed colleague, "is madness."

alanh 5y ago

No, sorry, 'income and wealth inequality' is not the major driver of the west coast's skyrocketing crime & grime. (I do think these inequalities' growing natures are problems.) The major driver is a population whose beliefs and guilts cause them to choose politicians and policies that act as magnets for addicts, and a refusal to take crime seriously, much less be tough on it. Sane, good people who cannot afford to be in $WestCoastCity do not move into a tent and acquire meth habits. They move away, somewhere they can afford. I know, I’ve lived with these people, I’ve been these people. Sane-but-not-well-off people leaving is probably harmful for $WestCoastCity's culture and economy, but it is not where the blight comes from. It’s drugs (see: San Fransicko) and crime-tolerant laws & attitudes.

sharkweek 5y ago
So what should we do? Build more jails and throw all the addicts in them?
- alanh 5y ago
  Building more jails shouldn't be necessary — but yes. Offer the choice of jail or rehab. (This is what e.g. Michael Shellenberger is calling for, as well as recovered drug addicts I know and respect.) This is has a dramatically better chance of saving the addict than does the status quo of bouncing them back from death with Narcan so they can do the same thing tomorrow… and the day after… and the day after… until they die.
  - BaseballPhysics 5y ago
    A few years ago I noticed an interesting trend in music in that it was going back and reviving old styles from the 1970s and 1980s. And like the 70s and 80s, it worked when it worked, but when it didn't, it really didn't. It's interesting seeing the same revivalist trend in public policy, particularly with respect to law enforcement and drug policies. Like those musicians, I can only surmise that younger generations think, for whatever reason, that they can do it better this time.
girzel 5y ago

eadmund 5y ago

> The absolutely staggering level of income and wealth inequality we have experienced in the last decade has taken all of those problems and multiplied them tenfold. An increase in inequality does not necessarily mean an increase in absolute poverty (it means an increase in relative poverty); indeed, an increase in inequality may very well go hand-in-hand with a decrease in absolute poverty. An increase in inequality does not justify, or explain, an increase in crime: folks might very well be better off in absolute terms after inequality increases. There is something other than inequality alone which explains the problems in Seattle.

na85 5y ago
- wara23arish 5y ago
  Not the previous commenter, but from what I understand is this. Previously: Poor purchasing power = 5 Rich purchasing power = 100 Now: Poor purchasing power = 15 Rich purchasing power = 500 This means even though the wealth inequality increased, the poor still are better off than before. Its not suggesting that BECAUSE of wealth inequality the poor are better off.
danShumway 5y ago
> An increase in inequality does not necessarily mean an increase in absolute poverty (it means an increase in relative poverty) Agreed, but... sometimes inequality and poverty do happen at the same time. Definitely not always, but is it actually the case in Seattle that there has been a decrease in absolute poverty? Would you say that inequality has skyrocketed in Seattle but the absolute purchasing power for people on things like housing, food, etc, has been unaffected? I am pretty skeptical. > folks might very well be better off in absolute terms after inequality increases. "Might be" is doing a lot of work here. You're right, they might be, but they might also not be. Last I checked Seattle has some of the most expensive housing in the country, and last time I visited I remember prices basically being through the roof on a ton of goods and services. Maybe things have gotten better since then? But I'm not sure I buy that everyone in Seattle is better off but a small portion of the population has gotten very rich so it's just relative inequality that's increased -- it seems to me from the outside looking in that the rising tide has not only not raised all boats in the area, it has in fact gone over some people's heads who were unable to swim with it. Which is definitely not to say that poverty is the only problem that Seattle has, but I'd be very surprised to see numbers that indicate living in Seattle has gotten more affordable over time[0]. I agree that rising inequality does not necessarily mean rising poverty, but I would love to see some numbers saying that Seattle in specific does not have a rising poverty problem, my prior is that it probably does. ---- [0]: Of course, feel free to surprise me if those numbers exist, I haven't checked them so I might very well be wrong, it's dangerous for me to trust my intuition too much on these things.

BaseballPhysics 5y ago

> Since threads about topics like this often have a very similar vibe regardless of forum... Judging by the replies you've received, I'm guessing this didn't work out the way you were hoping... Though, on the bright side, it did introduce me to the epithet "San Fransicko" which, while not particularly clever, is very mildly amusing.

LeFantome 5y ago

Wealth inequality may explain an increase in property crime. I do not follow how a rapid increase in violent crime factors in. Resentment is another motivation I understand but it seems a stretch to attribute baseball bats to the head as being a direct consequence. I suppose if you pair it with a social messaging narrative that true “class warfare” is ok you might be able to get there. It seems more likely though that the core driving force lies elsewhere.

immibis 5y ago
Resentment, attitude to the law, stability, education level. Stuff like that. You grow up homeless since 14, you will not be the most stable genius.

screye 5y ago

> The absolutely staggering level of income and wealth inequality we have experienced in the last decade has taken all of those problems and multiplied them tenfold I apologize for my curtness, but I don't buy this. Seattle's lack of homes has to do with NIMBYs blocking upzoning efforts. The city is mostly R1 zoned, and most homeowners have been here for more than a decade. The new 'rich' transplants are mostly renting in what is a massive wealth transfer to historic homeowners in the Seattle area. The worst of Seattle's problems also coincide strongly with the leadership being elected into office. HN-users frequently complain about terrible policies in middle-American cities and states. Some times, a complaint is a complaint. A pseudo anonymous forum should not require its participants to sugarcoat their feelings about living in a city. > incredibly complex problems I agree there. But, there is low hanging fruit that the city can start with. > Seattle is a beautiful city with a lot to offer This is part of why my criticism is so sharp. The squandered potential is what hurts. I will be honest, I do not complain about problems in desert cities like Phoenix or rust belt cities in economic ruin. They find themselves in irreversible long-term quagmires. But, cities like SF and Seattle that are flourishing, have all the potential in the world to have liveable city-cores like some east-coast cities or other global cities. Seattle is gorgeous, with amazing food and potential for liveliness. But, the complete reluctance to acknowledge the problem and the possibility of some obvious solutions is agonizing. I will lay them out in as clear words as possible. 1. Being weak-on-crime & homeless-friendly encourages more crime & homeless migrants. 2. A rapidly growing city needs rapidly growing housing. Some supporting proof of seattle's homelessness problems in comparison to peer cities: [1] High base and increase in Seattle homelessness - http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.ht... [2] High rate of mentally ill homeless in Seattle - https://dynomight.net/homeless-crisis/ https://dynomight.net/homeless-crisis/ (specifically: https://dynomight.net/img/homeless-crisis/coc/WA-Seattle%20King%20County.svg https://dynomight.net/img/homeless-crisis/coc/WA-Seattle%20K...) [3] Mind-bogglingly high rate of meth use in Seattle - https://dynomight.net/img/p2p-meth/metabolites.svg https://dynomight.net/img/p2p-meth/metabolites.svg

immibis 5y ago

Also remember that the criminals are people and not just mindless crime machines, and there are (sad) reasons why they commit crime.

adamrezich 5y ago

societal cohesion and trust have value. something about high-density urban environments seems to cause people to forget this and give misplaced, overly-enthusiastic empathy to criminals, which causes societal decay. this should not be controversial, but it is. furthermore, one would expect that tacit admissions that things have become untenable (such as this move by Amazon, or anyone who ends up moving out of these cities) would give cause to reevaluate one's worldview, but for whatever reason this does not seem to occur, generally. combine these factors with political entrenchment and the only solution for the individual is to recognize these issues, move to somewhere with lower population density, and don't make the same mistake twice when it comes to voting for bills and elected officials, and, more generally, in being unafraid to value societal cohesion and trust, regardless of whether it's politically popular to do so.