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>"And would that stop other people from stealing in the future?" Yes. Consequences are a deterrent. You will never be able to know for sure how many acts of th

>"And would that stop other people from stealing in the future?" Yes. Consequences are a deterrent. You will never be able to know for sure how many acts of theft weren't carried out because the person decided the reward wasn't work the risk of getting caught and going to jail. It seems self-evident that theft will rise when deterrents are dramatically curtailed. No one was suggesting that the threat of jail/prison would prevent all theft. >"What's the return on investment for sending someone to jail over diapers stolen from a Walgreens?" This is intangible. There will never be a satisfactory answer because there are just too many variables. How much theft was prevented by merit of being in jail? Is it possible going to jail made this person re-evaluate their life? Maybe some cashier's life was saved because a confrontation never took place. The theoreticals are endless.

staticassertion 5y ago
> Yes. Until they're released. At which point they'll have an even harder time getting a job, they'll be even more alienated and broken, and they'll likely only be able to associate with other criminals. Sounds like a recipe for increasing crime. > Consequences are a deterrent. Not really. If your options are "die" or "face potential consequences" you choose the latter every time. I really doubt that "I don't want to go to prison" is why most people don't commit crime. They don't commit crime because... crime sucks, it's not fun, and it's not really necessary for most people. The people who do crime aren't like "haha they won't prosecute me, sweet, finally I can go commit crimes". They're desperate. This seems so obvious. > This is intangible. Kind of a cop out. The reality is that people who go to prison have an extremely high rate of ending up back in prison, often for even worse crimes.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  >"They don't commit crime because... crime sucks, it's not fun, and it's not really necessary for most people." This doesn't explain vandalism, joyriding, or kleptomania. Additionally, the notion that "it's not really necessary for most people" is true, but misleading. But have you considered that some people realize theft is an easier alternative to being gainfully employed? Why bother putting up with a boss and paying taxes when I can steal a single catalytic converter and make $2K under the table? That's like a month's worth of salary gained in 20 minutes. >"The people who do crime aren't like "haha they won't prosecute me, sweet, finally I can go commit crimes". They're desperate." I don't think you have ever met a criminal. Some are desperate, but why can't you recognize that crime is lucrative and a preferable alternative for these people? For lots of people, if they can get away with it, they'll do it. Their conscience doesn't bother them like it would for you and I. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyride_(crime) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyride_(crime)
  - staticassertion 5y ago
    > This doesn't explain vandalism, joyriding, or kleptomania. These are pretty minor crimes lol I'll be really happy if we get to a point where we have to worry about these things. > But have you considered that some people realize theft is an easier alternative to being gainfully employed? I mean, yes, I've considered it. I dismissed it because it's sort of idiotic. Is it better than working a job with no healthcare, benefits, a minimum wage, and the chance to be fired at any time with no safety nets? Sure, yeah. We should fix that. > why can't you recognize that crime is lucrative and a preferable alternative for these people? We both agree that crime is preferable for some people. We just disagree about why. > Their conscience doesn't bother them like it would for you and I. Years of living in an abusive society, learning that crime is a survival mechanism, etc, will naturally do that to anyone.
    - BitwiseFool 5y ago
      >"These are pretty minor crimes lol I'll be really happy if we get to a point where we have to worry about these things." "Pretty minor crimes, lol". I sense you live in a nice area and have lived a sheltered life. You may not have to worry about such things, but plenty of people are not so fortunate. Have you ever had your home broken into? Your family's car stolen and joyridden? I have, multiple times. It's easy to write these things off as minor concerns when it's not happening to you.
      - staticassertion 5y ago
        I'm laughing because your points are so bad, to be clear, not at the crimes.
        BitwiseFool 5y ago
        Haha, I guess that makes me feel better.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  An even harder time finding a job? Finding a job for Andre is impossible already, because he doesn't want a job. Even though fencing shit is exactly the same as many retail jobs, except for the source of the goods

staticassertion 5y ago

> Yes. Until they're released. At which point they'll have an even harder time getting a job, they'll be even more alienated and broken, and they'll likely only be able to associate with other criminals. Sounds like a recipe for increasing crime. > Consequences are a deterrent. Not really. If your options are "die" or "face potential consequences" you choose the latter every time. I really doubt that "I don't want to go to prison" is why most people don't commit crime. They don't commit crime because... crime sucks, it's not fun, and it's not really necessary for most people. The people who do crime aren't like "haha they won't prosecute me, sweet, finally I can go commit crimes". They're desperate. This seems so obvious. > This is intangible. Kind of a cop out. The reality is that people who go to prison have an extremely high rate of ending up back in prison, often for even worse crimes.

BitwiseFool 5y ago
>"They don't commit crime because... crime sucks, it's not fun, and it's not really necessary for most people." This doesn't explain vandalism, joyriding, or kleptomania. Additionally, the notion that "it's not really necessary for most people" is true, but misleading. But have you considered that some people realize theft is an easier alternative to being gainfully employed? Why bother putting up with a boss and paying taxes when I can steal a single catalytic converter and make $2K under the table? That's like a month's worth of salary gained in 20 minutes. >"The people who do crime aren't like "haha they won't prosecute me, sweet, finally I can go commit crimes". They're desperate." I don't think you have ever met a criminal. Some are desperate, but why can't you recognize that crime is lucrative and a preferable alternative for these people? For lots of people, if they can get away with it, they'll do it. Their conscience doesn't bother them like it would for you and I. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyride_(crime) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyride_(crime)
- staticassertion 5y ago
  > This doesn't explain vandalism, joyriding, or kleptomania. These are pretty minor crimes lol I'll be really happy if we get to a point where we have to worry about these things. > But have you considered that some people realize theft is an easier alternative to being gainfully employed? I mean, yes, I've considered it. I dismissed it because it's sort of idiotic. Is it better than working a job with no healthcare, benefits, a minimum wage, and the chance to be fired at any time with no safety nets? Sure, yeah. We should fix that. > why can't you recognize that crime is lucrative and a preferable alternative for these people? We both agree that crime is preferable for some people. We just disagree about why. > Their conscience doesn't bother them like it would for you and I. Years of living in an abusive society, learning that crime is a survival mechanism, etc, will naturally do that to anyone.
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    >"These are pretty minor crimes lol I'll be really happy if we get to a point where we have to worry about these things." "Pretty minor crimes, lol". I sense you live in a nice area and have lived a sheltered life. You may not have to worry about such things, but plenty of people are not so fortunate. Have you ever had your home broken into? Your family's car stolen and joyridden? I have, multiple times. It's easy to write these things off as minor concerns when it's not happening to you.
    - staticassertion 5y ago
      I'm laughing because your points are so bad, to be clear, not at the crimes.
      - BitwiseFool 5y ago
        Haha, I guess that makes me feel better.
oh_sigh 5y ago
An even harder time finding a job? Finding a job for Andre is impossible already, because he doesn't want a job. Even though fencing shit is exactly the same as many retail jobs, except for the source of the goods