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The person they describe in the article is providing nothing to society. Only taking handouts and not using those handouts to better themselves, but instead con

The person they describe in the article is providing nothing to society. Only taking handouts and not using those handouts to better themselves, but instead continuing their life of crime and theft. No amount of extra help will lead them down a better path other than a long term mental institution (which we dont have anymore). They have betrayed the good will of the public providing those programs and jail is the only thing that will stop them at this point from continuing to lead a life of crime and theft.

amatecha 5y ago
Receiving free housing doesn't obligate him into bettering himself. I know most people totally disagree with this, and people usually get angry when I say things like that. But I don't care. The government has far more than enough money to literally just give everyone a free apartment, or a basic income (and I already pay so much income tax, I am totally fine with some of it going to help support others who are struggling). Maybe if Andre's parents had received that 20 years ago it would have made a serious difference in his life. He's figured out how to survive on his own in the meantime, and spent the past 15-20 years living that way, so it's not going to be easy for him to change from that way of living. Throwing him in jail is not going to make that happen -- in fact he's more likely to end up with a far worse psychological outlook after spending time in jail for... stealing a pack of diapers? Here's a very relevant paper on the issue, where the researcher concludes a number of suggestions, including "we need to consider ceasing to use prison as punishment" and "we should draw on the research of what we know works to prevent recidivism, especially literacy programs, skills training and GED, as well as educating prisoners to associate’s degree level in higher education and restore financial support for these successful practices": https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258834307_On_the_Effectiveness_of_Prison_as_Punishment https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258834307_On_the_Ef...
- tomschlick 5y ago
  So in what case in your mind is Andre responsible for his own actions here? It sounds like your solution is only to give him more and more handouts and expect a different result, when it doesn't sound like anything has worked for him in the past. > spending time in jail for... stealing a pack of diapers? That's disingenuous at best. These people steal hundreds of items and setup tables selling them. This isn't a mother stealing formula or diapers for her child. It's a criminal operation stealing stuff by the trash bag (as we have seen in many videos over the past few years) in cities with very loose theft laws (mostly on the west coast).
  - amatecha 5y ago
    My overall argument is, I don't know what to do about Andre right now, but throwing him in jail isn't going to help (I'd be willing to bet he's already spent time there actually). What will help reduce future "Andres" right now is ensuring people aren't living in a destitute situation and missing out on a decent education and generally partaking in society. That's like the absolutely fundamental first step to having a functioning society. You can't throw people by the wayside, but we (NA) do it in droves.
    - tomschlick 5y ago
      We have been throwing money, education opportunities, food and everything else at the poverty problem since LBJ passed the great society act in the 60s. By all metrics, things have gotten way worse even with those programs. So throwing more resources at the problem isn't the answer IMO. It's parenting, a focus on education (not turning teachers into babysitters but actual focus on passing), keeping fathers in the household as a role model for their young sons, and a focus on a community relying on each other instead of being dependent on the government.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

amatecha 5y ago

Receiving free housing doesn't obligate him into bettering himself. I know most people totally disagree with this, and people usually get angry when I say things like that. But I don't care. The government has far more than enough money to literally just give everyone a free apartment, or a basic income (and I already pay so much income tax, I am totally fine with some of it going to help support others who are struggling). Maybe if Andre's parents had received that 20 years ago it would have made a serious difference in his life. He's figured out how to survive on his own in the meantime, and spent the past 15-20 years living that way, so it's not going to be easy for him to change from that way of living. Throwing him in jail is not going to make that happen -- in fact he's more likely to end up with a far worse psychological outlook after spending time in jail for... stealing a pack of diapers? Here's a very relevant paper on the issue, where the researcher concludes a number of suggestions, including "we need to consider ceasing to use prison as punishment" and "we should draw on the research of what we know works to prevent recidivism, especially literacy programs, skills training and GED, as well as educating prisoners to associate’s degree level in higher education and restore financial support for these successful practices": https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258834307_On_the_Effectiveness_of_Prison_as_Punishment https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258834307_On_the_Ef...

tomschlick 5y ago
So in what case in your mind is Andre responsible for his own actions here? It sounds like your solution is only to give him more and more handouts and expect a different result, when it doesn't sound like anything has worked for him in the past. > spending time in jail for... stealing a pack of diapers? That's disingenuous at best. These people steal hundreds of items and setup tables selling them. This isn't a mother stealing formula or diapers for her child. It's a criminal operation stealing stuff by the trash bag (as we have seen in many videos over the past few years) in cities with very loose theft laws (mostly on the west coast).
- amatecha 5y ago
  My overall argument is, I don't know what to do about Andre right now, but throwing him in jail isn't going to help (I'd be willing to bet he's already spent time there actually). What will help reduce future "Andres" right now is ensuring people aren't living in a destitute situation and missing out on a decent education and generally partaking in society. That's like the absolutely fundamental first step to having a functioning society. You can't throw people by the wayside, but we (NA) do it in droves.
  - tomschlick 5y ago
    We have been throwing money, education opportunities, food and everything else at the poverty problem since LBJ passed the great society act in the 60s. By all metrics, things have gotten way worse even with those programs. So throwing more resources at the problem isn't the answer IMO. It's parenting, a focus on education (not turning teachers into babysitters but actual focus on passing), keeping fathers in the household as a role model for their young sons, and a focus on a community relying on each other instead of being dependent on the government.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]