5 ms·

Why is the US so hellbent on fighting for Ukraine in this case?

TameAntelope 5y ago
NATO, not the US, and because they’re asking us to. Also it’s a chilling return to a Soviet era Europe in a way that hasn’t happened since WW2. The whole world is watching to see what a country can get away with, nearly 80 years after Hitler’s Germany.
- infamouscow 5y ago
  But Ukraine isn't in NATO and East Ukrainians identify as Russian.
  - yks 5y ago
    > East Ukrainians identify as Russian This is not true, ignorant, and parrots hateful Russian state propaganda.
    - infamouscow 5y ago
      So my friend from Ukraine is lying and reciting Russian state propaganda? If there was ever a time for him to be anti-Russia, presumably, it would be whilst his country is being invaded. I guess you're right. I'm clearly ignorant for trying to wade through the immense amount of propaganda from both sides[1] here by getting some insight from someone born and raised in Kyiv. Also, I think Russian state-backed media is banned in the US now (where I am), but I could be wrong. 1: https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-ban-spreads-government-made-news-to-americans/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...
      - cuteboy19 5y ago
        I find it curious that you mentioned the us banning Russian propaganda, but no mention of Russia going full great firewall the past few weeks
        yks 5y ago
        I hope that these people are just paid Russian trolls cause if that many people in the West are following Russian propaganda so blindly, the future is bleak. Russia has not produced anything of value to humanity in decades, just suffering and decay of common sense.
        infamouscow 5y ago
        I was trying to refute the claims of the GP. Please don't insinuate I'm on Russia's side because I'm trying to understand both sides of this horrific situation. It's possible to be pro-Ukraine but also see why Putin invaded.* We need nuance rather than black-or-white positions. *: I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.
        cuteboy19 5y ago
        Not an explanation for my question but sure. I will believe you. I just see the same talking points as RT, which is why I was curious
      - yks 5y ago
        Accepting the most radical point of view of the state massacring civilians in another country is not "trying to wade through the immense amount of propaganda from both sides". Even if your friend "born and raised in Kyiv" is real, lived in Ukraine in recent decades and its their actual point of view that Ukrainians == Russians, that's still just an anecdote. And well, because of people with the views like that, horrible atrocities are justified.
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        Russian state-backed media is not "banned" in the US (who, exactly, would do this universal "ban"?), and the fact that you think such a thing is even possible makes me suspicious of your claim that you're from or are currently in the US to begin with...
      - wiseowise 5y ago
        > So my friend from Ukraine is lying and reciting Russian state propaganda? I'm Ukrainian from South. Yes, he's lying. They might speak Russian or be sceptical about decisions that our government makes, but they're in no way identify themselves as Russians.
  - cute_boi 5y ago
    Ukraine wants to join NATO. And, if they join NATO, rules can be bent, and they can do anything which Russia doesn't like. What would happen to Crimea if Ukraine had joined NATO in 2020 or 2021?
  - wiseowise 5y ago
    > East Ukrainians identify as Russian. And of course you have a source for that?
  - xoserr 5y ago
    I watched a brilliant interview with Vladimir Klitschko with him basically saying that Ukraine is part of Europe. Why are you standing by and not defending this European country? It was the way he said it, so brilliant and convincing. Ukraine has won the information war in a total wipe out.
  - xdennis 5y ago
    And Bostoners identify as Irish. Should Ireland annex it?
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    No I mean NATO, not the US, would fight for Ukraine, not the US. And yours is an "is" argument, I'm giving an "ought" argument. NATO ought to fight for Ukraine, because Ukraine is asking NATO to do so.
    - cryptonector 5y ago
      You think NATO ex-U.S. would fight better than the Russians? What would the order of battle be like?
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        The US is a member of NATO, so why would it be NATO ex-U.S.?
silisili 5y ago
Russia and US have been fighting via proxy wars for decades. So in this case it's less about helping Ukraine, and more about thumbing our nose at Russia.
infamouscow 5y ago
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Because this is the first war in recent memory the US didn't start. It's not even the first war between Russia and one of its neighbors in the last twenty years that the US didn't start, much less the first war of any kind in recent memory.
cute_boi 5y ago
The election is coming soon, Audience is bored of Xinjiang "genocide" [1], inflation is high due to printer brrrr.. And, the president is losing reputation due to the Afghanistan war, inflation. So, what can they do? Poke the bear and a madman from Russia starts to invade. Now, they can so pretend they are aligned with humanity by doing something. However, the Yemen war is still going on and only a few people know that. EU is still buying Russian oil. The US is begging despots from Saudi, Venezuela, or Iran ..... What a mess. [1] https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/02/13/genocide-is-the-wrong-word-for-the-horrors-of-xinjiang https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/02/13/genocide-is-the...
- unmole 5y ago
  What specific trigger is equivalent to poking the bear? If anything, by lifting sanctions on Nord Stream 2, Biden gave in.
brandonmenc 5y ago
Because we've been ginned up with Putin-Trump conspiracy theories for the past half-decade. No one cared when Russia annexed Crimea in 2014.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Why is the US so hellbent on fighting for Ukraine in this case? The US (and NATO more generally) is hell-bent on not fighting for Ukraine, because Russia.
bell-cot 5y ago
My cynical bet - the victims (aka Ukrainians) look (in popular press photos & video) similar enough to "white" Americans to really push the emotional buttons.
- throwaway802352 5y ago
  I have Ukrainian friends from college and co-workers (at least in part because my wife is Russian). We have a Ukrainian cleaning lady. It is easy to see people you know caught in this war.
avgDev 5y ago
Contrary to what some people believe US gets involved in conflicts beneficial to US. US and Russia have been in a proxy war for years now. Russia was putting bounties on US military. It is in US interest that Ukraine does as much damage as possible to Russia. Now, the world is seeing how weak the Russian military is, a lot of poorly maintained equipment. Sanctions are going to cripple Russian economy. The western world is completely turning against Russia. London is passing laws to stop Russian oligarchs from owning property. Switzerland stopped being neutral and is freezing accounts. This is unprecedented. We might be witnessing the downfall of Russian empire.
- hereforonep 5y ago
  > Russia was putting bounties on US military. Please stop spreading literally fake news, it hurts the cause for us to stop real Russian misinformation. Things like this is used to say that ALL western media is lies Fact check: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56775660.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56775660.amp
xoserr 5y ago
xdennis 5y ago
> Why is the US so hellbent on fighting for Ukraine in this case? It's not, so far, but it would be because Ukraine is a democracy and Russia is a dictatorship.

NATO, not the US, and because they’re asking us to. Also it’s a chilling return to a Soviet era Europe in a way that hasn’t happened since WW2. The whole world is watching to see what a country can get away with, nearly 80 years after Hitler’s Germany.

infamouscow 5y ago
But Ukraine isn't in NATO and East Ukrainians identify as Russian.
- yks 5y ago
  > East Ukrainians identify as Russian This is not true, ignorant, and parrots hateful Russian state propaganda.
  - infamouscow 5y ago
    So my friend from Ukraine is lying and reciting Russian state propaganda? If there was ever a time for him to be anti-Russia, presumably, it would be whilst his country is being invaded. I guess you're right. I'm clearly ignorant for trying to wade through the immense amount of propaganda from both sides[1] here by getting some insight from someone born and raised in Kyiv. Also, I think Russian state-backed media is banned in the US now (where I am), but I could be wrong. 1: https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-ban-spreads-government-made-news-to-americans/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...
    - cuteboy19 5y ago
      I find it curious that you mentioned the us banning Russian propaganda, but no mention of Russia going full great firewall the past few weeks
      - yks 5y ago
        I hope that these people are just paid Russian trolls cause if that many people in the West are following Russian propaganda so blindly, the future is bleak. Russia has not produced anything of value to humanity in decades, just suffering and decay of common sense.
      - infamouscow 5y ago
        I was trying to refute the claims of the GP. Please don't insinuate I'm on Russia's side because I'm trying to understand both sides of this horrific situation. It's possible to be pro-Ukraine but also see why Putin invaded.* We need nuance rather than black-or-white positions. *: I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.
        cuteboy19 5y ago
        Not an explanation for my question but sure. I will believe you. I just see the same talking points as RT, which is why I was curious
    - yks 5y ago
      Accepting the most radical point of view of the state massacring civilians in another country is not "trying to wade through the immense amount of propaganda from both sides". Even if your friend "born and raised in Kyiv" is real, lived in Ukraine in recent decades and its their actual point of view that Ukrainians == Russians, that's still just an anecdote. And well, because of people with the views like that, horrible atrocities are justified.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Russian state-backed media is not "banned" in the US (who, exactly, would do this universal "ban"?), and the fact that you think such a thing is even possible makes me suspicious of your claim that you're from or are currently in the US to begin with...
    - wiseowise 5y ago
      > So my friend from Ukraine is lying and reciting Russian state propaganda? I'm Ukrainian from South. Yes, he's lying. They might speak Russian or be sceptical about decisions that our government makes, but they're in no way identify themselves as Russians.
- cute_boi 5y ago
  Ukraine wants to join NATO. And, if they join NATO, rules can be bent, and they can do anything which Russia doesn't like. What would happen to Crimea if Ukraine had joined NATO in 2020 or 2021?
- wiseowise 5y ago
  > East Ukrainians identify as Russian. And of course you have a source for that?
- xoserr 5y ago
  I watched a brilliant interview with Vladimir Klitschko with him basically saying that Ukraine is part of Europe. Why are you standing by and not defending this European country? It was the way he said it, so brilliant and convincing. Ukraine has won the information war in a total wipe out.
- xdennis 5y ago
  And Bostoners identify as Irish. Should Ireland annex it?
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  No I mean NATO, not the US, would fight for Ukraine, not the US. And yours is an "is" argument, I'm giving an "ought" argument. NATO ought to fight for Ukraine, because Ukraine is asking NATO to do so.
  - cryptonector 5y ago
    You think NATO ex-U.S. would fight better than the Russians? What would the order of battle be like?
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      The US is a member of NATO, so why would it be NATO ex-U.S.?

silisili 5y ago

Russia and US have been fighting via proxy wars for decades. So in this case it's less about helping Ukraine, and more about thumbing our nose at Russia.

infamouscow 5y ago

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Because this is the first war in recent memory the US didn't start. It's not even the first war between Russia and one of its neighbors in the last twenty years that the US didn't start, much less the first war of any kind in recent memory.

cute_boi 5y ago

The election is coming soon, Audience is bored of Xinjiang "genocide" [1], inflation is high due to printer brrrr.. And, the president is losing reputation due to the Afghanistan war, inflation. So, what can they do? Poke the bear and a madman from Russia starts to invade. Now, they can so pretend they are aligned with humanity by doing something. However, the Yemen war is still going on and only a few people know that. EU is still buying Russian oil. The US is begging despots from Saudi, Venezuela, or Iran ..... What a mess. [1] https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/02/13/genocide-is-the-wrong-word-for-the-horrors-of-xinjiang https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/02/13/genocide-is-the...

unmole 5y ago
What specific trigger is equivalent to poking the bear? If anything, by lifting sanctions on Nord Stream 2, Biden gave in.

brandonmenc 5y ago

Because we've been ginned up with Putin-Trump conspiracy theories for the past half-decade. No one cared when Russia annexed Crimea in 2014.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Why is the US so hellbent on fighting for Ukraine in this case? The US (and NATO more generally) is hell-bent on not fighting for Ukraine, because Russia.

bell-cot 5y ago

My cynical bet - the victims (aka Ukrainians) look (in popular press photos & video) similar enough to "white" Americans to really push the emotional buttons.

throwaway802352 5y ago
I have Ukrainian friends from college and co-workers (at least in part because my wife is Russian). We have a Ukrainian cleaning lady. It is easy to see people you know caught in this war.

avgDev 5y ago

Contrary to what some people believe US gets involved in conflicts beneficial to US. US and Russia have been in a proxy war for years now. Russia was putting bounties on US military. It is in US interest that Ukraine does as much damage as possible to Russia. Now, the world is seeing how weak the Russian military is, a lot of poorly maintained equipment. Sanctions are going to cripple Russian economy. The western world is completely turning against Russia. London is passing laws to stop Russian oligarchs from owning property. Switzerland stopped being neutral and is freezing accounts. This is unprecedented. We might be witnessing the downfall of Russian empire.

hereforonep 5y ago
> Russia was putting bounties on US military. Please stop spreading literally fake news, it hurts the cause for us to stop real Russian misinformation. Things like this is used to say that ALL western media is lies Fact check: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56775660.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56775660.amp

xoserr 5y ago

xdennis 5y ago

> Why is the US so hellbent on fighting for Ukraine in this case? It's not, so far, but it would be because Ukraine is a democracy and Russia is a dictatorship.