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Why this even relevant? I want to talk about Mozilla Firefox removing control from the user, which was their promise for years. I don't see difference between t

Why this even relevant? I want to talk about Mozilla Firefox removing control from the user, which was their promise for years. I don't see difference between them doing it for political message, or Google doing it for profit.

throwmeariver1 5y ago
Are they? Do you know about their contract with yandex? You are emotional about something that is 100% financial in nature. If it wouldn’t be you can bet that with the Mozilla Foundation being the way they are in the last years would ponder themselves with a blog post or at least a tweet. Money talks or in this case it doesn’t anymore.
- leosarev 5y ago
  I'm ok with them cancelling contract with Yandex and changing defaults. I'm not ok with them removing this OPTION from browser.
  - throwmeariver1 5y ago
    Do you really believe the options provided are provided without the services paying for it?
    - ogurechny 5y ago
      Back in the days of sane version numbers, localized bookmarks and other stuff relied on local community input. Promotions were solitary and visible, just from their URL parameters. It changed when browser started to be seen as only a muzzle that sucks the meat source into data processing pipeline.
- Brian_K_White 5y ago
  I doesn't matter why, what and how are damning enough on their own. A legit change in some deal does not explain several aspects of this update. When something doesn't add up, you are supposed to scrutinize it, not just assume it's fine. If it was fine, then why wasn't there an honest explanation? Mozilla did a bad thing. If our speculations about the why are wrong, it doesn't change anything about what is wrong with this update. But even the speculation is fair game in this case because the update lacks all the normal and expected justification and explaination of any other merge request. Feel free to explain the above-board reason they made quite this nature of update in quite this peculiar way. What other updates to your browser should be ok to just take blindly with no explanation? The immagination staggers.
  - throwmeariver1 5y ago
    It’s their browser not yours if you don’t trust them use something else. I keep away from defaults especially search because they are usually paid for and not in good faith. They also dropped yandex two times already and you guessed it right… because of monetary reasons. This is not the smoking gun you want it to be.
    - ogurechny 5y ago
      “Their” browser is useless pile of code when it's not being run on someone's computer. My own computer, for example. Which is not their computer at all. You people seem to be totally brainwashed by corporate bullshit.
      - throwmeariver1 5y ago
        ogurechny 5y ago
        That statement was not Firefox-specific. Marketing bullshit about saints above blessing lowly ignorant masses incapable of independent action with fad-of-the-year software (with a not so nice user agreement) should not be tolerated. We can all laugh at people who can't change a search engine, and call them dumb, but when something like Mozilla decides “these users are dumb, they get used to it”, it's a tad different story.
    - kelnos 5y ago
      > It’s their browser not yours if you don’t trust them use something else. That's... not how things work. If you're not happy about something, you should complain about it. That's the only way that people's preferences become known, and changes can be made. If we all constantly hopped from product to product when the product we're currently using does something we didn't like, we'd very quickly run out of options.
    - AniseAbyss 5y ago
- kelnos 5y ago
  > Do you know about their contract with yandex? I frankly don't care. I don't use Yandex, but if I did, I'd be really pissed off at this move. Firefox shouldn't be including only search engines that pay a fee; they should be including all search engines that their users might find useful.
  - floatboth 5y ago
    The browser is provided for free. Selling search defaults/inclusions is by far the least intrusive way to make money to fund the development of the browser.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      Least? Least would be fundraising in Hollywood not selling out default preferences to the highest bidder. Almost all browsers are free. All major and minor ones are free.
      - clucas 5y ago
        I suspect that if Firefox got most of its funding from Hollywood, it would be even more susceptible to the politics-du-jour. Why do you think high-profile fundraising would make Firefox more independent?
        ipaddr 5y ago
        More user friendly browser without sponsored search engine defaults. More Mozilla fluff projects don't have to cross my life path.
MisterSandman 5y ago
Can't you just, like, manually add Yandex as a search option?
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  You would need to have some skills for that. My grandma wouldn’t be able to do that and this change would disrupt her workflow. Not the end of the world, but this is user hostile change. I’m fine with removal of this engine for new installs, but pulling the rag under existing users is wrong. This anti-Russian madness gone completely out of control. I bet this change alone will drive a significant chunk of Russian Firefox users to Yandex Browser. Unlikely the intention of Firefox developers but here we go.
bastawhiz 5y ago
> Mozilla Firefox removing control from the user Did they? You can still add Yandex back manually (and trivially), it's just not included with the stock install.
- ogurechny 5y ago
  It was not “just not included”, it was removed for everyone, no matter whether they wanted to use it or not. Maybe lizardmen from Mozilla are so detached they consider that all users just suck up and eat what's on the plate today, but some regular people use Yandex search because they have mail there, keep themselves logged in, have configured other services, need something for their work daily, yada yada. So they open the browser and see a tiny panel stating “FUCK YOU”. And it's not tech-savvy users (responding with “fuck you too” and fixing the problem) who get bitten and poached, it's the regular people. There is a reason to think the actual goal of all that radio silence was preventing people from trivially switching to Yandex manually in advance of the change.
  - bastawhiz 5y ago
    OpenSearch is a standard. Visit Yandex in Firefox today, and you'll see Firefox happily offer to add Yandex to your search dropdown. The green plus shows you that it's an option. https://imgur.com/BVlfEIz https://imgur.com/BVlfEIz It's also in the right click menu for the address bar. Why does Mozilla need to include Yandex as a default option?
    - ogurechny 5y ago
      I know that. The whole thing started for me today when I advised a user on some web forum this exact way of bringing it back. Then, out of interest, I dug into the code and the bug tracker, only to find that absolutely nothing was stated about the changes, even though they have been cooking for a month¹. My first real browser was steel-gray Mozilla Suite, back then I opened as many forum topics in tabs as it was possible during a free promotional 5 minute modem connection. The problem is not inclusion by default, the problem is unwarranted unconditional removal, whether it is default or not, and whether it is needed or not. Mozilla has decided the pretend it happened “by itself”, but it was their decision, and they had an option to switch people to non-sponsored Yandex search. ¹) http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://support.mozilla.org/en-...
tomjen3 5y ago

throwmeariver1 5y ago

Are they? Do you know about their contract with yandex? You are emotional about something that is 100% financial in nature. If it wouldn’t be you can bet that with the Mozilla Foundation being the way they are in the last years would ponder themselves with a blog post or at least a tweet. Money talks or in this case it doesn’t anymore.

leosarev 5y ago
I'm ok with them cancelling contract with Yandex and changing defaults. I'm not ok with them removing this OPTION from browser.
- throwmeariver1 5y ago
  Do you really believe the options provided are provided without the services paying for it?
  - ogurechny 5y ago
    Back in the days of sane version numbers, localized bookmarks and other stuff relied on local community input. Promotions were solitary and visible, just from their URL parameters. It changed when browser started to be seen as only a muzzle that sucks the meat source into data processing pipeline.
Brian_K_White 5y ago
I doesn't matter why, what and how are damning enough on their own. A legit change in some deal does not explain several aspects of this update. When something doesn't add up, you are supposed to scrutinize it, not just assume it's fine. If it was fine, then why wasn't there an honest explanation? Mozilla did a bad thing. If our speculations about the why are wrong, it doesn't change anything about what is wrong with this update. But even the speculation is fair game in this case because the update lacks all the normal and expected justification and explaination of any other merge request. Feel free to explain the above-board reason they made quite this nature of update in quite this peculiar way. What other updates to your browser should be ok to just take blindly with no explanation? The immagination staggers.
- throwmeariver1 5y ago
  It’s their browser not yours if you don’t trust them use something else. I keep away from defaults especially search because they are usually paid for and not in good faith. They also dropped yandex two times already and you guessed it right… because of monetary reasons. This is not the smoking gun you want it to be.
  - ogurechny 5y ago
    “Their” browser is useless pile of code when it's not being run on someone's computer. My own computer, for example. Which is not their computer at all. You people seem to be totally brainwashed by corporate bullshit.
    - throwmeariver1 5y ago
      - ogurechny 5y ago
        That statement was not Firefox-specific. Marketing bullshit about saints above blessing lowly ignorant masses incapable of independent action with fad-of-the-year software (with a not so nice user agreement) should not be tolerated. We can all laugh at people who can't change a search engine, and call them dumb, but when something like Mozilla decides “these users are dumb, they get used to it”, it's a tad different story.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    > It’s their browser not yours if you don’t trust them use something else. That's... not how things work. If you're not happy about something, you should complain about it. That's the only way that people's preferences become known, and changes can be made. If we all constantly hopped from product to product when the product we're currently using does something we didn't like, we'd very quickly run out of options.
  - AniseAbyss 5y ago
kelnos 5y ago
> Do you know about their contract with yandex? I frankly don't care. I don't use Yandex, but if I did, I'd be really pissed off at this move. Firefox shouldn't be including only search engines that pay a fee; they should be including all search engines that their users might find useful.
- floatboth 5y ago
  The browser is provided for free. Selling search defaults/inclusions is by far the least intrusive way to make money to fund the development of the browser.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Least? Least would be fundraising in Hollywood not selling out default preferences to the highest bidder. Almost all browsers are free. All major and minor ones are free.
    - clucas 5y ago
      I suspect that if Firefox got most of its funding from Hollywood, it would be even more susceptible to the politics-du-jour. Why do you think high-profile fundraising would make Firefox more independent?
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        More user friendly browser without sponsored search engine defaults. More Mozilla fluff projects don't have to cross my life path.

MisterSandman 5y ago

Can't you just, like, manually add Yandex as a search option?

vbezhenar 5y ago
You would need to have some skills for that. My grandma wouldn’t be able to do that and this change would disrupt her workflow. Not the end of the world, but this is user hostile change. I’m fine with removal of this engine for new installs, but pulling the rag under existing users is wrong. This anti-Russian madness gone completely out of control. I bet this change alone will drive a significant chunk of Russian Firefox users to Yandex Browser. Unlikely the intention of Firefox developers but here we go.

bastawhiz 5y ago

> Mozilla Firefox removing control from the user Did they? You can still add Yandex back manually (and trivially), it's just not included with the stock install.

ogurechny 5y ago
It was not “just not included”, it was removed for everyone, no matter whether they wanted to use it or not. Maybe lizardmen from Mozilla are so detached they consider that all users just suck up and eat what's on the plate today, but some regular people use Yandex search because they have mail there, keep themselves logged in, have configured other services, need something for their work daily, yada yada. So they open the browser and see a tiny panel stating “FUCK YOU”. And it's not tech-savvy users (responding with “fuck you too” and fixing the problem) who get bitten and poached, it's the regular people. There is a reason to think the actual goal of all that radio silence was preventing people from trivially switching to Yandex manually in advance of the change.
- bastawhiz 5y ago
  OpenSearch is a standard. Visit Yandex in Firefox today, and you'll see Firefox happily offer to add Yandex to your search dropdown. The green plus shows you that it's an option. https://imgur.com/BVlfEIz https://imgur.com/BVlfEIz It's also in the right click menu for the address bar. Why does Mozilla need to include Yandex as a default option?
  - ogurechny 5y ago
    I know that. The whole thing started for me today when I advised a user on some web forum this exact way of bringing it back. Then, out of interest, I dug into the code and the bug tracker, only to find that absolutely nothing was stated about the changes, even though they have been cooking for a month¹. My first real browser was steel-gray Mozilla Suite, back then I opened as many forum topics in tabs as it was possible during a free promotional 5 minute modem connection. The problem is not inclusion by default, the problem is unwarranted unconditional removal, whether it is default or not, and whether it is needed or not. Mozilla has decided the pretend it happened “by itself”, but it was their decision, and they had an option to switch people to non-sponsored Yandex search. ¹) http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://support.mozilla.org/en-...

tomjen3 5y ago