4 ms·

I'm pleased to see this being espoused. One thing I always tell junior people is ""don't be tempted to think of make(1) as out-of-date [1], and to view package

by gjvc 5y ago

I'm pleased to see this being espoused. One thing I always tell junior people is ""don't be tempted to think of make(1) as out-of-date [1], and to view packages available via npm etc as better replacements, as many tasks fit the model of make(1), if not the title "a program for directing recompilation" "" I am often viewed with suspicion until I show them a (much more compact) replacement for their custom python/js program expressed as a makefile without any of the process management requiring debugging. :-) An alternative approach for the "batches of files to process" situation is to generate the commands and feed them to GNU parallel for execution. [1] no pun intended

nicoburns 5y ago
Agreed if you only have to support linux/unix, but the one good thing about the Node ecosystem is that they tend to work on windows too.
- gjvc 5y ago
  not the point, also "WSL"
- verelo 5y ago
  While i agree, I’ve spent literal days fighting with node modules in recent months. Sure make isn’t perfect either but it’s a lot less, confusing? Ie json isn’t a language for humans, but often you really need to read it to correct some issue or bad merge from another contributor.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    > Sure make isn’t perfect either but it’s a lot less, confusing? I think that's a matter of what you're used to. I don't use make all that often, so I find make files beyond a few lines quite a lot to get my head around, whereas I spend all day writing JavaScript so I can read/write JSON in my sleep.
    - verelo 5y ago
      Maybe. I actually use node much more often, i don't even recall the last time i used a make file in production, i just find parsing json as a human to be rather painful.
- Steltek 5y ago
  Make has worked on Windows longer than Node.js has existed.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    Make works fine, it's the commands you call from make that don't tend to as compatible. For example, try running rm -rf on windows. It might work if you have GNU tools installed, but it certainly won't work out of the box. On the other hand, the node.js `rimraf` package will do the same thing with no cross-platform compatibility issues.
    - Steltek 5y ago
      When using package.json, does npm intercept a script containing "rm -rf" and translate it to something different?
      - geewee 5y ago
        No, that's why there's a bunch of packages such as rimraf[0] that implements that sort of functionality in a cross-platform way that most people use in their scripts [0]: https://www.npmjs.com/package/rimraf https://www.npmjs.com/package/rimraf
      - nicoburns 5y ago
        No, but it does put binaries from any installed node packages in your PATH (locally when running scripts).
  - jchw 5y ago
    The history of Make on Windows would Make one think twice about relying on it. What shell do you get when running Make on Windows?
- throw0101a 5y ago
  http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/make.htm http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/make.htm https://community.chocolatey.org/packages/make https://community.chocolatey.org/packages/make
andrew_ 5y ago
Might it not be a disservice to juniors to point them away from deeply understanding the platform they're working with?
- gjvc 5y ago
  Showing someone an alternative approach does not prevent someone "deeply understanding" their current method; it's not zero-sum.
  - gjvc 5y ago
    Might it not be a disservice to juniors to point them away from deeply understanding the platform they're working with? I cannot overstate how annoyed I was by the patronising tone of this comment.
jjice 5y ago
Biggest pain of package.json to me is having to be crammed on one line. Slap in a conditional and now we have a messy thing to read, compared to its multiline counterpart.
Wicher 5y ago
Speaking of debugging, I found this handy: print-%: ; @echo '$(subst ','\'',$*=$($*))' include Makefile Save somewhere, eg as ~/Makefile.debug, then when you want to know the evaluated value of some variable or task in some Makefile, you prefix it with print- — for example, LOCALES: make -f ~/Makefile.debug print-LOCALES It'll print the evaluated LOCALES of the Makefile in the directory you run this in.
- BeefWellington 5y ago
  This is amazing. Thank you for the tip!
- gjvc 5y ago
  Very useful, will give it a shot. Thank you. :-)

by gjvc 5y ago

nicoburns 5y ago

Agreed if you only have to support linux/unix, but the one good thing about the Node ecosystem is that they tend to work on windows too.

gjvc 5y ago
not the point, also "WSL"
verelo 5y ago
While i agree, I’ve spent literal days fighting with node modules in recent months. Sure make isn’t perfect either but it’s a lot less, confusing? Ie json isn’t a language for humans, but often you really need to read it to correct some issue or bad merge from another contributor.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  > Sure make isn’t perfect either but it’s a lot less, confusing? I think that's a matter of what you're used to. I don't use make all that often, so I find make files beyond a few lines quite a lot to get my head around, whereas I spend all day writing JavaScript so I can read/write JSON in my sleep.
  - verelo 5y ago
    Maybe. I actually use node much more often, i don't even recall the last time i used a make file in production, i just find parsing json as a human to be rather painful.
Steltek 5y ago
Make has worked on Windows longer than Node.js has existed.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  Make works fine, it's the commands you call from make that don't tend to as compatible. For example, try running rm -rf on windows. It might work if you have GNU tools installed, but it certainly won't work out of the box. On the other hand, the node.js `rimraf` package will do the same thing with no cross-platform compatibility issues.
  - Steltek 5y ago
    When using package.json, does npm intercept a script containing "rm -rf" and translate it to something different?
    - geewee 5y ago
      No, that's why there's a bunch of packages such as rimraf[0] that implements that sort of functionality in a cross-platform way that most people use in their scripts [0]: https://www.npmjs.com/package/rimraf https://www.npmjs.com/package/rimraf
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      No, but it does put binaries from any installed node packages in your PATH (locally when running scripts).
- jchw 5y ago
  The history of Make on Windows would Make one think twice about relying on it. What shell do you get when running Make on Windows?
throw0101a 5y ago
http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/make.htm http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/make.htm https://community.chocolatey.org/packages/make https://community.chocolatey.org/packages/make

andrew_ 5y ago

Might it not be a disservice to juniors to point them away from deeply understanding the platform they're working with?

gjvc 5y ago
Showing someone an alternative approach does not prevent someone "deeply understanding" their current method; it's not zero-sum.
- gjvc 5y ago
  Might it not be a disservice to juniors to point them away from deeply understanding the platform they're working with? I cannot overstate how annoyed I was by the patronising tone of this comment.

jjice 5y ago

Biggest pain of package.json to me is having to be crammed on one line. Slap in a conditional and now we have a messy thing to read, compared to its multiline counterpart.

Wicher 5y ago

Speaking of debugging, I found this handy: print-%: ; @echo '$(subst ','\'',$*=$($*))' include Makefile Save somewhere, eg as ~/Makefile.debug, then when you want to know the evaluated value of some variable or task in some Makefile, you prefix it with print- — for example, LOCALES: make -f ~/Makefile.debug print-LOCALES It'll print the evaluated LOCALES of the Makefile in the directory you run this in.

BeefWellington 5y ago
This is amazing. Thank you for the tip!
gjvc 5y ago
Very useful, will give it a shot. Thank you. :-)