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> they push various coup like founding the Solidarność "syndicate" in Poland If you think that Solidarność is some sort of criminal movement, I don't want to b

> they push various coup like founding the Solidarność "syndicate" in Poland If you think that Solidarność is some sort of criminal movement, I don't want to be on your side. Maybe they are not relevant now (outlived their purpose a little), but I live in Poland and DO NOT want to be back in Russia. Some old people say "under communism it was better", but when asked a little more they say things like "we had almost nothing and we were happy" while watching some recent news on flat screen in comfy home with all the kitchen appliances they want. Cool, now Russia will be like that old times, they can go there and compare how good it is.

kkfx 5y ago
Solidarność was evidently criminal by history, but that does not means Soviet's were good guys, that's the common error too many commit following actual propaganda: Putin IS clearly a dictator and that does not at all means that on the other side they are less criminal or more just. The blackbird is black and that does not imply the crow is white. Beside that: consider a thing, the Soviet have done some BIG criminal act, for instance on Ukraine starving many to death just to nourish their newly born industry needed for war and cohesion, again that does not means that the white financed by UK, France and others were less criminal or just. States do their own math for specific reasons and sometimes things are complicated. Understanding what happen means being able to comprehend who's right or wrong and at what extent. Another historic example during WWII in France Philippe Pétain, a former WWI hero decide to sign an agreement with nazi German founding Vichy regime. If you read the history at that level he was a hero turned in a monster. That's nor true nor false. He have well seen WWI where French officers where killed taken as a sample "to push troops" while he see that Germany troops were FAR less self-aggressive, he see the degree of separation between officers and soldiers in the army while far less happen on German side, so he just make a small computation: "if we can't win it's better being under Germany than under a corrupted regime that want to sell France to UK" (that's was the plan, read "In The Thick of The Fight 1930-1945" by Paul Reynaud) and many was with him both because they agree and both because they think he will turn side again sooner. He became evil after. Knowing that really change the history, he was both a hero and a villain and the same was valid for many others. Actual Poland gov. for what I've read should be arrested en mass for high treason, attempted coup d'etat and others crimes for instance, and that does not mean opponent of actual gov are good guys. Again we have to read the complexity before judge.
- yetihehe 5y ago
  > Solidarność was evidently criminal by history Not evidently. Otherwise it would be known more widely. Unless you consider ANY resistance to be criminals. And I mean actual murderers who killed just to enrich themselves, not "declared unlawful by dictatorship regime". > Actual Poland gov. for what I've read should be arrested en mass for high treason, attempted coup d'etat and others crimes for instance Yeah, everything they do looks like they want communism back. > Again we have to read the complexity before judge. So, we should just talk about ideal governments and do nothing because we consider both sides criminals? Or do you just like talking about how both sides are ugly?
  - kkfx 5y ago
    > Not evidently. Of course, winning side dislike news against itself, a small historic example: how many know that USA companies and various part of the government helped the nazi's in WWII even after the start of the war? How many know that IBM provide systems to them to track Hebrews and political opponent, Standard Oil provide petroleum products etc to a point that one of the master of USA propaganda, Eduard Bernays was thanked by hitler and goebbels for it's inspirations? How many know that UK crown pay mussolini in Italy and then probably manage to kill him when they can't rescue him to avoid at that time that such infos became public? How many know that Marshall plan was NOT a generous donation to war-destroyed countries but a masterpiece of theft where forcing loosing power to withdraw their resources imposing even new currencies (Amlire in Italy, Neue deutsche mark in Germany) actually just giving back some of the resources they steal from them? How many recall "Operation Unthinkable" or "Operation Dropshot"? As Bernays so Anne Morelli states in her "10 principes élémentaires de propagande de guerre" the wining side must be only angelic and the loosing side only demoniac... > Yeah, everything they do looks like they want communism back. They do worse than that: socialism (witch was the start, communism came after and some think came thanks to UK crown and Germany money to subvert the inizial revolution) impose a "religion of the party" that makes many disaster but at least push countries toward modernization, too quickly, making disasters, but with results, newer regime choose classical religions obscurantism (just look recent anti-abortion laws in Poland but also in the USA) witch have done worst because it's the same oppression and have no modernization aspects. Soviets say "work hard to create paradise of workers in life" classic systems say "work hard to get a paradise when you are dead" so at least the former leave a dream... > So, we should just talk about ideal governments and do nothing because we consider both sides criminals? For Ukraine both sides are criminals, but Russian side have interests but also some good reasons, the nazi-NATO side have just interests. Ukraine Russian-speaking populations was persecuted, killed, raped, systematically since at least 2014's Euromaidan not by Ukrainian-speaking part of the population but by nazi militias like Azov battalion, C14, Pravy Sektor etc that are armed and trained by NATO. So Putin is a dictator and want Ukraine for it's position and resources, BUT also have reasons to act because many (few millions?) Russian-speaking Citizens suffer countless crimes in a year long attempt of genocide. So while remain a dictatorship have all the right to say "we do special ops, even not war, because a war is against a state-enemy, not against common crocks armed and trained by some enemies, to stop a genocide of our friendly populations". Something USA can't even say for Iraq or Afghanistan, so to speak... That's the main difference. And Russians do not left a Russian speaking population in Ukraine, while USA create talibans (and probably also ISIS) for their own interests and that's turned bad at a certain point in time.

kkfx 5y ago

Solidarność was evidently criminal by history, but that does not means Soviet's were good guys, that's the common error too many commit following actual propaganda: Putin IS clearly a dictator and that does not at all means that on the other side they are less criminal or more just. The blackbird is black and that does not imply the crow is white. Beside that: consider a thing, the Soviet have done some BIG criminal act, for instance on Ukraine starving many to death just to nourish their newly born industry needed for war and cohesion, again that does not means that the white financed by UK, France and others were less criminal or just. States do their own math for specific reasons and sometimes things are complicated. Understanding what happen means being able to comprehend who's right or wrong and at what extent. Another historic example during WWII in France Philippe Pétain, a former WWI hero decide to sign an agreement with nazi German founding Vichy regime. If you read the history at that level he was a hero turned in a monster. That's nor true nor false. He have well seen WWI where French officers where killed taken as a sample "to push troops" while he see that Germany troops were FAR less self-aggressive, he see the degree of separation between officers and soldiers in the army while far less happen on German side, so he just make a small computation: "if we can't win it's better being under Germany than under a corrupted regime that want to sell France to UK" (that's was the plan, read "In The Thick of The Fight 1930-1945" by Paul Reynaud) and many was with him both because they agree and both because they think he will turn side again sooner. He became evil after. Knowing that really change the history, he was both a hero and a villain and the same was valid for many others. Actual Poland gov. for what I've read should be arrested en mass for high treason, attempted coup d'etat and others crimes for instance, and that does not mean opponent of actual gov are good guys. Again we have to read the complexity before judge.

yetihehe 5y ago
> Solidarność was evidently criminal by history Not evidently. Otherwise it would be known more widely. Unless you consider ANY resistance to be criminals. And I mean actual murderers who killed just to enrich themselves, not "declared unlawful by dictatorship regime". > Actual Poland gov. for what I've read should be arrested en mass for high treason, attempted coup d'etat and others crimes for instance Yeah, everything they do looks like they want communism back. > Again we have to read the complexity before judge. So, we should just talk about ideal governments and do nothing because we consider both sides criminals? Or do you just like talking about how both sides are ugly?
- kkfx 5y ago
  > Not evidently. Of course, winning side dislike news against itself, a small historic example: how many know that USA companies and various part of the government helped the nazi's in WWII even after the start of the war? How many know that IBM provide systems to them to track Hebrews and political opponent, Standard Oil provide petroleum products etc to a point that one of the master of USA propaganda, Eduard Bernays was thanked by hitler and goebbels for it's inspirations? How many know that UK crown pay mussolini in Italy and then probably manage to kill him when they can't rescue him to avoid at that time that such infos became public? How many know that Marshall plan was NOT a generous donation to war-destroyed countries but a masterpiece of theft where forcing loosing power to withdraw their resources imposing even new currencies (Amlire in Italy, Neue deutsche mark in Germany) actually just giving back some of the resources they steal from them? How many recall "Operation Unthinkable" or "Operation Dropshot"? As Bernays so Anne Morelli states in her "10 principes élémentaires de propagande de guerre" the wining side must be only angelic and the loosing side only demoniac... > Yeah, everything they do looks like they want communism back. They do worse than that: socialism (witch was the start, communism came after and some think came thanks to UK crown and Germany money to subvert the inizial revolution) impose a "religion of the party" that makes many disaster but at least push countries toward modernization, too quickly, making disasters, but with results, newer regime choose classical religions obscurantism (just look recent anti-abortion laws in Poland but also in the USA) witch have done worst because it's the same oppression and have no modernization aspects. Soviets say "work hard to create paradise of workers in life" classic systems say "work hard to get a paradise when you are dead" so at least the former leave a dream... > So, we should just talk about ideal governments and do nothing because we consider both sides criminals? For Ukraine both sides are criminals, but Russian side have interests but also some good reasons, the nazi-NATO side have just interests. Ukraine Russian-speaking populations was persecuted, killed, raped, systematically since at least 2014's Euromaidan not by Ukrainian-speaking part of the population but by nazi militias like Azov battalion, C14, Pravy Sektor etc that are armed and trained by NATO. So Putin is a dictator and want Ukraine for it's position and resources, BUT also have reasons to act because many (few millions?) Russian-speaking Citizens suffer countless crimes in a year long attempt of genocide. So while remain a dictatorship have all the right to say "we do special ops, even not war, because a war is against a state-enemy, not against common crocks armed and trained by some enemies, to stop a genocide of our friendly populations". Something USA can't even say for Iraq or Afghanistan, so to speak... That's the main difference. And Russians do not left a Russian speaking population in Ukraine, while USA create talibans (and probably also ISIS) for their own interests and that's turned bad at a certain point in time.