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A small tip to HN readers: Whataboutism is key to Russian propaganda. I'm not saying people here are Russian trolls, but if your key reaction to "What's happen

A small tip to HN readers: Whataboutism is key to Russian propaganda. I'm not saying people here are Russian trolls, but if your key reaction to "What's happening in Ukraine is shit and we need to do something NOW" is to say "Oh but what about what the US did in the past?", you're amplifying Russian propaganda, and it may be because you've been hearing Russian-funded articles/media, directly or indirectly. Nothing, in the immediate, will be done about the US's past war crimes. Should something be done? Yes. Is having this conversation now while Europe is at war and civilians are dying every day, hospitals are bombed, and millions are fleeing Ukraine? No, all that serves is to strengthen Russia's position on the web, which is a very important part of their strategy (as it has been for the past 8 years). So I ask of you: 1. Do not amplify Putin's message and propaganda. You want to talk about this stuff? Wait for the war to end. Please. 2. Stop making everything in the world about the USA, FFS. My friends and girlfriend's family are hearing bombs fall every day, why do you have to make this about you?

heavenlyblue 5y ago
I really like the fact that now that RT is banned everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia. Where have you been when RT was doing that brazenly in front of your faces with full acceptance of the governments? It's quite frankly amusing that it took Russia an invasion of Ukraine for that to become illegal, while before (Brexit, etc) it was just "freedom of speech".
- scrollaway 5y ago
  > Where have you been I was always there, speaking out against propaganda, maybe you can check my post history. And I don't know what you're on, but "everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia" is utterly wrong. HN is becoming a very scary, far too pro-Russia place since the past week or so now that the Russians have gotten a better handle on their propaganda. If you have doubts, you can look at my post's score which is hovering around zero, constantly being voted up and down. Opinion in Europe is extremely anti-Russia at this point, but I see that the US media is coming back to its old habits pitting controversy for the sake of clicks. As a result, US opinion went from overwhelmingly anti-Russia to "maybe they're not all bad I mean let's just look at what we did before oh well" in the span of a few days.
  - ziml77 5y ago
    Is that what's happening to the general opinion in the US? I guess I'm in a bit of a bubble, but I don't know anyone who's decided that what Russia is doing is fine since the US has also attacked other countries.
    - scrollaway 5y ago
      Slowly happening but as far as I can see, it is the case. Very early after the 24th, the opinion was extremely pro Ukraine, but it's been slowly trending down, with a pro-Russia voice taking over. Not just "because US has done worse", but anything from "it's our fault because of NATO" to "Ukraine is supposed to be Russian anyway, he's taking back what's his". It's not the majority opinion (yet), but it's worrisome.
      - ziml77 5y ago
        I've heard people blame the US for the war which only makes sense insomuch as we're not appeasing Putin. It's not like anyone was forcing Ukraine into NATO. As far as I can tell the only reason they wanted to join was because they were afraid of Russia doing exactly what they're doing right now. I guess the idea that it's our fault spreads easily when it gives people another thing to say Biden has done wrong. As for any claim that Ukraine is Russian, if that's a thought that anyone genuinely has and not just Russian disinformation agents, then I hope they have no problem letting Europe have their American colonies back. Or turning their homes over to the American natives.
dotancohen 5y ago
You are wrong. If a nation does something that other nations do, it is completely unjustified to pretend that their actions are wrong. The international community normalizes actions through actions. You might not like the fact that some particular action is normalized but you cannot suddenly villianize a nation for doing the same that other ("our allies") nations do regularly.
- krapp 5y ago
  So what you're saying is that the West should allow Russia to do whatever it likes from now on because the US invaded Iraq, and to do otherwise would be hypocritical. Ok. If that's the case, then Russia's actions justify any action the West ever takes in the future. There are no rules, all bets are off, and all war crimes are justified henceforth. Including the use of nuclear weapons, which was normalized in 1945, and the use of biological and chemical weapons as normalized in World War 1. You wont' complain if any nation - the US, Israel, anyone - invades a sovereign nation and slaughters civilians because that's been normalized and is now justified, correct? And nothing - absolutely nothing - is more important than not being a hypocrite, correct? Actually, now that I think about it, since the US wasn't even the first country to invade Iraq or Afghanistan to begin with, their actions were already justified. It's not as if the US created imperialism or war, so what are people even trying to accomplish pointing out America's flaws? It's been normalized for thousands of years, what's the problem?
- scrollaway 5y ago
  What the hell are you talking about? Your post is extremely difficult to even parse. Let's be clear, there are war crimes happening daily in Ukraine and there is NOTHING normalized around this. The US having done it before doesn't make it fucking normal, but it also doesn't mean the top priority now is to talk about US war crimes. 1,582 civilians killed by Russian shelling and blockade in Mariupol (Reuters): https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraines-mariupol-says-1582-civilians-killed-by-russian-shelling-blockade-2022-03-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraines-mariupol-says-1582-ci... Lavrov confirmed that Russia deliberately bombed a maternity hospital in Mariupol (Article with more details from the Independent): https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/russia-maternity-hosptial-bombing-nato-b2032849.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/russia-maternity-hospti... These are just two random recent examples I pulled from a long list of updates. Let me know if you want more, there's a buffet of choice.

heavenlyblue 5y ago

I really like the fact that now that RT is banned everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia. Where have you been when RT was doing that brazenly in front of your faces with full acceptance of the governments? It's quite frankly amusing that it took Russia an invasion of Ukraine for that to become illegal, while before (Brexit, etc) it was just "freedom of speech".

scrollaway 5y ago
> Where have you been I was always there, speaking out against propaganda, maybe you can check my post history. And I don't know what you're on, but "everybody read the same western articles and are attributing the whole dissent within Europe/US to Russia" is utterly wrong. HN is becoming a very scary, far too pro-Russia place since the past week or so now that the Russians have gotten a better handle on their propaganda. If you have doubts, you can look at my post's score which is hovering around zero, constantly being voted up and down. Opinion in Europe is extremely anti-Russia at this point, but I see that the US media is coming back to its old habits pitting controversy for the sake of clicks. As a result, US opinion went from overwhelmingly anti-Russia to "maybe they're not all bad I mean let's just look at what we did before oh well" in the span of a few days.
- ziml77 5y ago
  Is that what's happening to the general opinion in the US? I guess I'm in a bit of a bubble, but I don't know anyone who's decided that what Russia is doing is fine since the US has also attacked other countries.
  - scrollaway 5y ago
    Slowly happening but as far as I can see, it is the case. Very early after the 24th, the opinion was extremely pro Ukraine, but it's been slowly trending down, with a pro-Russia voice taking over. Not just "because US has done worse", but anything from "it's our fault because of NATO" to "Ukraine is supposed to be Russian anyway, he's taking back what's his". It's not the majority opinion (yet), but it's worrisome.
    - ziml77 5y ago
      I've heard people blame the US for the war which only makes sense insomuch as we're not appeasing Putin. It's not like anyone was forcing Ukraine into NATO. As far as I can tell the only reason they wanted to join was because they were afraid of Russia doing exactly what they're doing right now. I guess the idea that it's our fault spreads easily when it gives people another thing to say Biden has done wrong. As for any claim that Ukraine is Russian, if that's a thought that anyone genuinely has and not just Russian disinformation agents, then I hope they have no problem letting Europe have their American colonies back. Or turning their homes over to the American natives.

dotancohen 5y ago

You are wrong. If a nation does something that other nations do, it is completely unjustified to pretend that their actions are wrong. The international community normalizes actions through actions. You might not like the fact that some particular action is normalized but you cannot suddenly villianize a nation for doing the same that other ("our allies") nations do regularly.

krapp 5y ago
So what you're saying is that the West should allow Russia to do whatever it likes from now on because the US invaded Iraq, and to do otherwise would be hypocritical. Ok. If that's the case, then Russia's actions justify any action the West ever takes in the future. There are no rules, all bets are off, and all war crimes are justified henceforth. Including the use of nuclear weapons, which was normalized in 1945, and the use of biological and chemical weapons as normalized in World War 1. You wont' complain if any nation - the US, Israel, anyone - invades a sovereign nation and slaughters civilians because that's been normalized and is now justified, correct? And nothing - absolutely nothing - is more important than not being a hypocrite, correct? Actually, now that I think about it, since the US wasn't even the first country to invade Iraq or Afghanistan to begin with, their actions were already justified. It's not as if the US created imperialism or war, so what are people even trying to accomplish pointing out America's flaws? It's been normalized for thousands of years, what's the problem?
scrollaway 5y ago
What the hell are you talking about? Your post is extremely difficult to even parse. Let's be clear, there are war crimes happening daily in Ukraine and there is NOTHING normalized around this. The US having done it before doesn't make it fucking normal, but it also doesn't mean the top priority now is to talk about US war crimes. 1,582 civilians killed by Russian shelling and blockade in Mariupol (Reuters): https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraines-mariupol-says-1582-civilians-killed-by-russian-shelling-blockade-2022-03-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraines-mariupol-says-1582-ci... Lavrov confirmed that Russia deliberately bombed a maternity hospital in Mariupol (Article with more details from the Independent): https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/russia-maternity-hosptial-bombing-nato-b2032849.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/russia-maternity-hospti... These are just two random recent examples I pulled from a long list of updates. Let me know if you want more, there's a buffet of choice.