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So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government,

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against.

kragen 5y ago
Yeah, I'm not looking forward to when Argentina decides they can seize the property of any US citizen because of the US invasion of Iraq.
raverbashing 5y ago
> just OK to seize private property of individuals Yes, it's a war. Deal with it If they have a problem they can take it up with their boss. > to this is getting pretty fucking scary I believe there are kids in Ukraine who are legitimately scared. Getting your megayacht confiscated is just a first world problem.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  >Yes, it's a war. Deal with it The countries doing the seizing aren't at war with Russia and seem adamant about currently not being at war.
  - avh02 5y ago
    And one of the ways they're trying to keep from joining and turning it in to ww3 is confiscating the opponent's rich people's toys.
  - scrollaway 5y ago
    Russia itself is adamant about not being at war. It's a "special operation", remember? We're trying really hard to toe the line in order not to start a third world war. But we are at war. We're sending aid and weapons every day by the megatons to Ukraine. Ukrainians are fighting on our behalf, so that nuclear escalation does not happen. But as far as Russia is concerned, we are at war, and in fact Putin himself said that the various sanctions and such are "acts of war", even if he hasn't acted on it (yet).
  - baq 5y ago
    formally, they aren't. i'd google what mr. neville chamberlain did in 1938, though.
- cyberpunk 5y ago
  These things trickle down. It leads to stuff like this: German clinic refuses to treat Russian Patients [0] Canada bans Russian pianist from performing [1] 0: https://www.rtl.de/cms/muenchen-iatros-privatklinik-will-keine-russen-belarussen-behandeln-es-folgt-heftige-kritik-4932473.html https://www.rtl.de/cms/muenchen-iatros-privatklinik-will-kei... 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/arts/music/russian-artists-putin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/arts/music/russian-artist... Do you think that is OK? Because of a lunatic in their home country? The same things were said about the Jews in the 1920's. We should try to be carful, and keep our empathy.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    Hostility against Russians have nothing to do with sanction and everything to do with what the Russian government is doing. You might pretend otherwise but that's not how it works The clinic has reversed their position by the way
jamespo 5y ago
"links to their government" is doing a lot of work there
- thriftwy 5y ago
  How? The country doing the seizing is not at war with the government in question. Even during the war you would expect the overseas property to be quarantined to use it as a lever during potential peace talks. As opposed to the unreversible confiscation such as giving it to somebody else to own. I'm not sure if that's what happening here.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Razengan 5y ago
There are brazen calls for literal assassination of Russian leaders with hundreds of upvotes on Reddit, but when a veteran soldier confronts a former US president for pulling pretty much the same shit, he gets dragged and thrown out: https://old.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/td5wgj/iraq_war_veteran_confronts_george_bush https://old.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/td5wgj/ir...
- krapp 5y ago
  It's almost as if the context differs between upvoting on a forum and threatening a leader to their face in their own country, in a room full of their supporters. I'm certain that if a Russian did the same in front of Putin, the results would be similar if not worse.
  - PoignardAzur 5y ago
    > threatening a leader to their face in their own country, in a room full of their supporters Have we seen the same video? There's no threat. He said "You lied" and "You need to apologize".
- jamil7 5y ago
  I hadn't been on reddit for a really long time (way before all this started) and I logged in yesterday and was pretty surprised by how much war glorification was dominating the popular page and the simplistic narrative being pushed.
  - the_lonely_road 5y ago
    Remember that half of the messages you are reading on Reddit are from literal 10 to 15 year olds. A lot of popular media these days, but especially popular media targeted at the younger demographic, mentions reddit in it and the quality of the discourse clearly shows it. Full anonymity on the internet was a mistake. The exact same words carry very different weight depending on what lips they pass out of and every ounce of that nuance has been lost in internet discussion.
  - 5y ago
88840-8855 5y ago
What do you expect? The Russians are a pretty comfy enemy. From Call of Duty over Mission Impossible, we are familiar to the evil Russian, hence, those reactions are so satisfying to too many people, unfortunately. I have Ukranian/Russian roots. My girl, born in Germany, was just pushed by classmates and called nasty words just last week in school. This reminds me of the racism against Asian people when Covid appeared. This war only has losers, the Ukranians, the Russian people, the Europeans, the Americans. Edit: Somehow some posts were deleted from this thread, also my experience with Racism I have faced a few days ago. That is strange.
- Gepsens 5y ago
  I'm French, this story makes my stomach wrench.
- refurb 5y ago
  Pretty much. San Francisco fired the SF Symphony Director because... he's from Russia. Amazing how quickly our base, tribal instincts kick in when an "enemy" appears. All pretense to "peace" and "restraint" and "avoid foreign wars" goes out the window really damn quick. If you're the kind of person who looks back and thinks "man, how could America be so stupid to get involved in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq"? Well, you're living in those times right now. Hell, that's exactly why we put the Japanese in internment camps. Looks like a pretty good portion of HN would support that even now.
  - 88840-8855 5y ago
    It works especially well when the enemy is somewhat predefined by the media and the general tropes and narratives in movies, games, books. The Chinese are evil, so are the Russians. Everyone knows that. Or Middle Eastern guys. They could be terrorists. All evil, we are good. Did you ever think that a Dutch or an Italian girl could be bad? I told my child to say that she has Ukranian roots (which she has, my grandmother is from Ukraine) and deny her Russian roots after she was bullied last week in school. I tried to explain to her the situation and the motivation of those bullies. I also deny my Russian roots in the volunteer group I support in my city here in Germany. They need Ukrainian/Russian speaking people to help to translate. When I first joined the coordination zoom chat of one group and it was my turn to introduce myself and mentioned my Russian roots (to explain why I speak Russian), I got banned. I later joined another group and there only mentioned my Ukrainian heritage. Now every day I help as a translator for the people who come to my city and I am very happy to do that.
djrobstep 5y ago
kangda123 5y ago
Thats just not true. The relaxation of hate speech is towards Russian troops only. Not civilians. Frankly, what kind of communication do you expect from civilians in a kill or get killed situation.
trhway 5y ago
>So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? it is a war, and the one started by them. They should be grateful of losing only property while people in Ukraine are losing their lives. They didn't afford due process to those Ukrainians. Actually they don't afford due process to any Ukrainian. What expectations of due process they may reasonably expect for themselves after that? After the war these Putin's top supporters should get punished for the war crimes together with Putin. This is the due process they should get. Limiting blame only to Putin just doesn't make sense. Putin doesn't press the button launching missiles. All Russians in Russia are responsible for what is happening. Just looks at bacchanalia of "Z" symbol celebration these days across all Russia (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/07/world/europe/russia-letter-z-ivan-kuliak.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/07/world/europe/russia-lette... - The "Z" is the marking on the Russian armor of the western invasion group in Ukraine, the one which is attacking Kiev for example, and that symbol became the symbol of that war in Russia). You wanna get beaten as a dirty traitor by a bunch of Russian passer-by-s - just make some offensive comment on the "Z". >And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. It is applicable only to Russian soldiers in Ukraine. It would be strange that one can shoot such a soldier, yet wouldn't be able to call for a death of the soldier on FB.
newsclues 5y ago
Here in Canada our government seized protesters money and the crowds cheered.
baq 5y ago
they are not individuals. they are the Russian state. i agree it's a fine line, but then, these people are undermining western democracies and at the same time seek safety in them. they assumed their assets would be safe and tried to max their payouts.
- jeffreygoesto 5y ago
  How's that different from the US?
  - scotty79 5y ago
    It's no different. And US oligarchs should fully expect to have their assets seized if they ever allow US government to perpetrate such insanity. US oligarches are the people that decide what the government is allowed to do. They can stop any decision that they don't like. If they don't stop it, they are responsible for it. And should pay for it if the rest of the world decides it's prudent.
qaq 5y ago
It warms my heart this is the biggest worry on your mind at the moment. It's not beign seized though for now just frozen. Many of the so called "Olygarchs" are nominal holders of Putin's personal wealth btw.
matthewmacleod 5y ago
So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Yes, I think most of us would agree it is reasonably acceptable to freeze the assets of people who have close ties with a government currently engaged in an invasion that is being condemned by the people doing the seizing. Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? I'm sure there are – and I hope that if, say, the US decides to invade Mexico and start levelling cities, then other countries seize the property of rich Americans who are backing that invasion. And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. No we don't – you chose to deliberately misrepresent this. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against. Nah, false equivalence. I think "we are going to seize the international assets of supporters of a regime engaged in a war we consider illegal" is a pretty fine tool, and really not anywhere close to "we are going to launch an all-out invasion of a relatively functional sovereign democracy".
ericmay 5y ago
> So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Yes and it always has been. None of these people are actual citizens of these countries in any meaningful way, and Russia is a mafia state where the sanctioned individuals have more or less committed crime in order to gain these assets in the first place, and they are helping someone that the countries seizing assets believe is committing a war crime. This is more like having a king and princes and princesses and seizing assets of the princes and princesses conducting the war. These aren’t like “oh shucks” rags to riches wealthy everyday Russians. > Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? Sure you can. And Iran or Venezuela or Russia or North Korea can seize their assets in those countries for committing “crimes” as they see fit. Wonder why nobody has assets in those countries? But this whataboutism also fails because (insert cartoon CEO villain scapegoat) isn’t giving money to Joe Biden to go personally invade Canada. It’s incomparable. > “Something something Iraq” First who cares? We’re talking about Russia and Ukraine. Second yes countries can decide that they don’t like Americans and seize their assets abroad. > Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against. You haven’t seen anything yet. We’re 100% going to war with Russia or will be engaging them directly unless Putin is deposed and I don’t think that’s going to happen. He wants a war so it’s just a matter of time until he decides to attack resupply missions in Poland directly on Polish soil.
kleene_op 5y ago
> So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? > And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. You're absolutely right in both regards but please do not conflate those two. I'll weep zero tears over Putin's rich friends not being able to play with their yacht anymore, but common Russians having to leave their home country and suffering from heinous mob mentality outside have my dearest sympathy.
- dotancohen 5y ago
lvl102 5y ago
I am sorry but the world has always been this way. Countries with actual power used to take away far more than what is being done right now. The US (and the West) has been trying to do what is right which is doing it without devastations of wars. People forget the US military is good enough to wipe out 1/2 of the world within weeks. Would you rather have that? Or some bank accounts getting frozen? Your take is extremely naive.
InvertedRhodium 5y ago
Wait until you find out about civil forfeiture.
jasode 5y ago
>So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Just in case there's misunderstanding about what "seize" means... Are governments actually taking ownership possession (nationalizing) of Russian yachts or are they removing the assets from the owner's control? In other words, does "seize" mean: (1) civil forfeiture like USA police confiscating cash without due process ? or (2) freezing an asset like impounding/towing a car away and the owner can eventually get the car back later (e.g. after Russia stops the war) ? The various reports I've read makes it seem like UK is treating Russian yachts as (2). In contrast... with the fleets of airplanes leased from Europe sitting in Russian territory, it looks like Russia does literally want to take ownership of them in retaliation to sanctions.
- Canotdohng 5y ago
  > (2) freezing an asset like impounding/towing a car away and the owner can eventually get the car back later (e.g. after Russia stops the war) ? At least in Europe AFAIK. The rationale is to prevent, at least temporarily, oligarchs from benefiting from their assets. And the possibility of getting them back could give these influencial oligarchs an incentive to push for a resolution of the war that might be less catastrophic than where it is headed now.
thrw2355y 5y ago
Governments should be doing more to redistribute wealth, not perpetuate inequality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_ideologies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_ideologies Not quite sure which part of punk idealogies you are aligned with, but imo seizing assets of bloated billionaires that support and profit from war is definitely a punk move that I would support.
jltsiren 5y ago
1. This is not private property in any meaningful sense of the word. Russia is not governed by the rule of the law. Those people are more like semiofficial branches of the government than private billionaires working within the system. They made their fortunes by taking advantage of corruption rather than in legitimate business. 2. Wars of this scale are not fought between governments but between societies. Anyone who contributes to the economy of Russia (or Ukraine) is participating in the war. Third countries that favor one side of the war may seize the property of those who are contributing to the other side. Legally and legitimately. 3. Property rights are only as strong as the governments guaranteeing them. If no government is able and willing to guarantee them, they cease to exist in any meaningful sense. Once the war is over and the dust has settled, the victors and their friends will sort out who owns what.
giantrobot 5y ago
> So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Seizing the assets of a de facto government agent of a sanctioned country is following due process. Governments decided by their own internal deliberation mechanisms to sanction Russia for its aggression in Ukraine. The world didn't magically decide to seize assets of some random Russian speakers because they said mean words. > And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Nope, they relaxed rules specifically with regard to Russian armed forces[0]. It would be pretty ridiculous to ban a Facebook user in Ukraine that call for the defense of their country by attacking the invading soldiers. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-facebook-instagram-temporarily-allow-calls-violence-against-russians-2022-03-10/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-facebook-inst...
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
Yep, this is something that Hitler did, when he seized the property of the Jews, but people are currently acting like nazis did, just against the russians now. This also sets another dangerous precendent, that you can just sieze property of someone you don't like... people protesting against covid measures? Seize their property. Protesting against a pipeline.. sieze their property! BLM, pro-trump, anti-trump, eco-protests, sieze everything!
user-the-name 5y ago
scotty79 5y ago
> Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? Yes. And if America invaded Mexico and started shelling their cities, I'd like the world to do exactly the same. Tank the dollar into the ground and seize all assets of American companies and individuals who own over a 100mln dollars and stop all trade. You are benefiting for your government, you are materialy responsible for its actions. In the modern world there's no other way to keep the world sane. If something is going bit too far is excluding Russian sport and culture. But even that it only mild overstepping since large number of Russians support their government and large part of Russian export of culture and sport is government subsidized. How strongly the world reacts now is the only thing that can curb future teritorial ambitions of other countries like China. The message should be clear. Starting a war will cost you, your economy and the wealth of your wealthiest. And the world will really shrink for you because you won't be able to enjoy its freedoms.
- juanani 5y ago
beefield 5y ago
> seize private property Mind your tongue. It's not seizing, it is just a special legal operation. Absolutely nothing to do with seizing. I'd also want to remind what Karl Popper said about Paradox of Tolerance. " Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal."
gilbetron 5y ago
CTDOCodebases 5y ago
>So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Who said there's no due process? That's why it's getting seized. Forfeiture happens later if it's proven laws have been broken. Besides, seizing property is better than more violence. Maybe if the Taliban seized the assets of rich american elites America would have left Afghanistan a lot sooner. >Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. I'm watching people lose all their private property or worse while the aggressor responsible for the situation threatens “consequences greater than any you have faced in history” to any nation who wishes to step in and stop this. Pretty scary huh? >We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against. So no military intervention and sanctions. How is this supposed to end? I don't think apathy will do it.
- ilammy 5y ago
  > Besides, seizing property is better than more violence. Also, governments can un-seize property back after a while. It's not like this stuff gets immediately liquidated and funneled into defense spending or disaster relief or whatever.

kragen 5y ago

Yeah, I'm not looking forward to when Argentina decides they can seize the property of any US citizen because of the US invasion of Iraq.

raverbashing 5y ago

> just OK to seize private property of individuals Yes, it's a war. Deal with it If they have a problem they can take it up with their boss. > to this is getting pretty fucking scary I believe there are kids in Ukraine who are legitimately scared. Getting your megayacht confiscated is just a first world problem.

Tenoke 5y ago
>Yes, it's a war. Deal with it The countries doing the seizing aren't at war with Russia and seem adamant about currently not being at war.
- avh02 5y ago
  And one of the ways they're trying to keep from joining and turning it in to ww3 is confiscating the opponent's rich people's toys.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  Russia itself is adamant about not being at war. It's a "special operation", remember? We're trying really hard to toe the line in order not to start a third world war. But we are at war. We're sending aid and weapons every day by the megatons to Ukraine. Ukrainians are fighting on our behalf, so that nuclear escalation does not happen. But as far as Russia is concerned, we are at war, and in fact Putin himself said that the various sanctions and such are "acts of war", even if he hasn't acted on it (yet).
- baq 5y ago
  formally, they aren't. i'd google what mr. neville chamberlain did in 1938, though.
cyberpunk 5y ago
These things trickle down. It leads to stuff like this: German clinic refuses to treat Russian Patients [0] Canada bans Russian pianist from performing [1] 0: https://www.rtl.de/cms/muenchen-iatros-privatklinik-will-keine-russen-belarussen-behandeln-es-folgt-heftige-kritik-4932473.html https://www.rtl.de/cms/muenchen-iatros-privatklinik-will-kei... 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/arts/music/russian-artists-putin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/arts/music/russian-artist... Do you think that is OK? Because of a lunatic in their home country? The same things were said about the Jews in the 1920's. We should try to be carful, and keep our empathy.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Hostility against Russians have nothing to do with sanction and everything to do with what the Russian government is doing. You might pretend otherwise but that's not how it works The clinic has reversed their position by the way

jamespo 5y ago

"links to their government" is doing a lot of work there

thriftwy 5y ago
How? The country doing the seizing is not at war with the government in question. Even during the war you would expect the overseas property to be quarantined to use it as a lever during potential peace talks. As opposed to the unreversible confiscation such as giving it to somebody else to own. I'm not sure if that's what happening here.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Razengan 5y ago

There are brazen calls for literal assassination of Russian leaders with hundreds of upvotes on Reddit, but when a veteran soldier confronts a former US president for pulling pretty much the same shit, he gets dragged and thrown out: https://old.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/td5wgj/iraq_war_veteran_confronts_george_bush https://old.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/comments/td5wgj/ir...

krapp 5y ago
It's almost as if the context differs between upvoting on a forum and threatening a leader to their face in their own country, in a room full of their supporters. I'm certain that if a Russian did the same in front of Putin, the results would be similar if not worse.
- PoignardAzur 5y ago
  > threatening a leader to their face in their own country, in a room full of their supporters Have we seen the same video? There's no threat. He said "You lied" and "You need to apologize".
jamil7 5y ago
I hadn't been on reddit for a really long time (way before all this started) and I logged in yesterday and was pretty surprised by how much war glorification was dominating the popular page and the simplistic narrative being pushed.
- the_lonely_road 5y ago
  Remember that half of the messages you are reading on Reddit are from literal 10 to 15 year olds. A lot of popular media these days, but especially popular media targeted at the younger demographic, mentions reddit in it and the quality of the discourse clearly shows it. Full anonymity on the internet was a mistake. The exact same words carry very different weight depending on what lips they pass out of and every ounce of that nuance has been lost in internet discussion.
- 5y ago

88840-8855 5y ago

What do you expect? The Russians are a pretty comfy enemy. From Call of Duty over Mission Impossible, we are familiar to the evil Russian, hence, those reactions are so satisfying to too many people, unfortunately. I have Ukranian/Russian roots. My girl, born in Germany, was just pushed by classmates and called nasty words just last week in school. This reminds me of the racism against Asian people when Covid appeared. This war only has losers, the Ukranians, the Russian people, the Europeans, the Americans. Edit: Somehow some posts were deleted from this thread, also my experience with Racism I have faced a few days ago. That is strange.

Gepsens 5y ago
I'm French, this story makes my stomach wrench.
refurb 5y ago
Pretty much. San Francisco fired the SF Symphony Director because... he's from Russia. Amazing how quickly our base, tribal instincts kick in when an "enemy" appears. All pretense to "peace" and "restraint" and "avoid foreign wars" goes out the window really damn quick. If you're the kind of person who looks back and thinks "man, how could America be so stupid to get involved in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq"? Well, you're living in those times right now. Hell, that's exactly why we put the Japanese in internment camps. Looks like a pretty good portion of HN would support that even now.
- 88840-8855 5y ago
  It works especially well when the enemy is somewhat predefined by the media and the general tropes and narratives in movies, games, books. The Chinese are evil, so are the Russians. Everyone knows that. Or Middle Eastern guys. They could be terrorists. All evil, we are good. Did you ever think that a Dutch or an Italian girl could be bad? I told my child to say that she has Ukranian roots (which she has, my grandmother is from Ukraine) and deny her Russian roots after she was bullied last week in school. I tried to explain to her the situation and the motivation of those bullies. I also deny my Russian roots in the volunteer group I support in my city here in Germany. They need Ukrainian/Russian speaking people to help to translate. When I first joined the coordination zoom chat of one group and it was my turn to introduce myself and mentioned my Russian roots (to explain why I speak Russian), I got banned. I later joined another group and there only mentioned my Ukrainian heritage. Now every day I help as a translator for the people who come to my city and I am very happy to do that.

djrobstep 5y ago

kangda123 5y ago

Thats just not true. The relaxation of hate speech is towards Russian troops only. Not civilians. Frankly, what kind of communication do you expect from civilians in a kill or get killed situation.

trhway 5y ago

>So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? it is a war, and the one started by them. They should be grateful of losing only property while people in Ukraine are losing their lives. They didn't afford due process to those Ukrainians. Actually they don't afford due process to any Ukrainian. What expectations of due process they may reasonably expect for themselves after that? After the war these Putin's top supporters should get punished for the war crimes together with Putin. This is the due process they should get. Limiting blame only to Putin just doesn't make sense. Putin doesn't press the button launching missiles. All Russians in Russia are responsible for what is happening. Just looks at bacchanalia of "Z" symbol celebration these days across all Russia (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/07/world/europe/russia-letter-z-ivan-kuliak.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/07/world/europe/russia-lette... - The "Z" is the marking on the Russian armor of the western invasion group in Ukraine, the one which is attacking Kiev for example, and that symbol became the symbol of that war in Russia). You wanna get beaten as a dirty traitor by a bunch of Russian passer-by-s - just make some offensive comment on the "Z". >And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. It is applicable only to Russian soldiers in Ukraine. It would be strange that one can shoot such a soldier, yet wouldn't be able to call for a death of the soldier on FB.

newsclues 5y ago

Here in Canada our government seized protesters money and the crowds cheered.

baq 5y ago

they are not individuals. they are the Russian state. i agree it's a fine line, but then, these people are undermining western democracies and at the same time seek safety in them. they assumed their assets would be safe and tried to max their payouts.

jeffreygoesto 5y ago
How's that different from the US?
- scotty79 5y ago
  It's no different. And US oligarchs should fully expect to have their assets seized if they ever allow US government to perpetrate such insanity. US oligarches are the people that decide what the government is allowed to do. They can stop any decision that they don't like. If they don't stop it, they are responsible for it. And should pay for it if the rest of the world decides it's prudent.

qaq 5y ago

It warms my heart this is the biggest worry on your mind at the moment. It's not beign seized though for now just frozen. Many of the so called "Olygarchs" are nominal holders of Putin's personal wealth btw.

matthewmacleod 5y ago

So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Yes, I think most of us would agree it is reasonably acceptable to freeze the assets of people who have close ties with a government currently engaged in an invasion that is being condemned by the people doing the seizing. Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? I'm sure there are – and I hope that if, say, the US decides to invade Mexico and start levelling cities, then other countries seize the property of rich Americans who are backing that invasion. And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. No we don't – you chose to deliberately misrepresent this. Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against. Nah, false equivalence. I think "we are going to seize the international assets of supporters of a regime engaged in a war we consider illegal" is a pretty fine tool, and really not anywhere close to "we are going to launch an all-out invasion of a relatively functional sovereign democracy".

ericmay 5y ago

> So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Yes and it always has been. None of these people are actual citizens of these countries in any meaningful way, and Russia is a mafia state where the sanctioned individuals have more or less committed crime in order to gain these assets in the first place, and they are helping someone that the countries seizing assets believe is committing a war crime. This is more like having a king and princes and princesses and seizing assets of the princes and princesses conducting the war. These aren’t like “oh shucks” rags to riches wealthy everyday Russians. > Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? Sure you can. And Iran or Venezuela or Russia or North Korea can seize their assets in those countries for committing “crimes” as they see fit. Wonder why nobody has assets in those countries? But this whataboutism also fails because (insert cartoon CEO villain scapegoat) isn’t giving money to Joe Biden to go personally invade Canada. It’s incomparable. > “Something something Iraq” First who cares? We’re talking about Russia and Ukraine. Second yes countries can decide that they don’t like Americans and seize their assets abroad. > Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against. You haven’t seen anything yet. We’re 100% going to war with Russia or will be engaging them directly unless Putin is deposed and I don’t think that’s going to happen. He wants a war so it’s just a matter of time until he decides to attack resupply missions in Poland directly on Polish soil.

kleene_op 5y ago

> So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? > And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. You're absolutely right in both regards but please do not conflate those two. I'll weep zero tears over Putin's rich friends not being able to play with their yacht anymore, but common Russians having to leave their home country and suffering from heinous mob mentality outside have my dearest sympathy.

dotancohen 5y ago

lvl102 5y ago

I am sorry but the world has always been this way. Countries with actual power used to take away far more than what is being done right now. The US (and the West) has been trying to do what is right which is doing it without devastations of wars. People forget the US military is good enough to wipe out 1/2 of the world within weeks. Would you rather have that? Or some bank accounts getting frozen? Your take is extremely naive.

InvertedRhodium 5y ago

Wait until you find out about civil forfeiture.

jasode 5y ago

>So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Just in case there's misunderstanding about what "seize" means... Are governments actually taking ownership possession (nationalizing) of Russian yachts or are they removing the assets from the owner's control? In other words, does "seize" mean: (1) civil forfeiture like USA police confiscating cash without due process ? or (2) freezing an asset like impounding/towing a car away and the owner can eventually get the car back later (e.g. after Russia stops the war) ? The various reports I've read makes it seem like UK is treating Russian yachts as (2). In contrast... with the fleets of airplanes leased from Europe sitting in Russian territory, it looks like Russia does literally want to take ownership of them in retaliation to sanctions.

Canotdohng 5y ago
> (2) freezing an asset like impounding/towing a car away and the owner can eventually get the car back later (e.g. after Russia stops the war) ? At least in Europe AFAIK. The rationale is to prevent, at least temporarily, oligarchs from benefiting from their assets. And the possibility of getting them back could give these influencial oligarchs an incentive to push for a resolution of the war that might be less catastrophic than where it is headed now.

thrw2355y 5y ago

Governments should be doing more to redistribute wealth, not perpetuate inequality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_ideologies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_ideologies Not quite sure which part of punk idealogies you are aligned with, but imo seizing assets of bloated billionaires that support and profit from war is definitely a punk move that I would support.

jltsiren 5y ago

1. This is not private property in any meaningful sense of the word. Russia is not governed by the rule of the law. Those people are more like semiofficial branches of the government than private billionaires working within the system. They made their fortunes by taking advantage of corruption rather than in legitimate business. 2. Wars of this scale are not fought between governments but between societies. Anyone who contributes to the economy of Russia (or Ukraine) is participating in the war. Third countries that favor one side of the war may seize the property of those who are contributing to the other side. Legally and legitimately. 3. Property rights are only as strong as the governments guaranteeing them. If no government is able and willing to guarantee them, they cease to exist in any meaningful sense. Once the war is over and the dust has settled, the victors and their friends will sort out who owns what.

giantrobot 5y ago

> So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Seizing the assets of a de facto government agent of a sanctioned country is following due process. Governments decided by their own internal deliberation mechanisms to sanction Russia for its aggression in Ukraine. The world didn't magically decide to seize assets of some random Russian speakers because they said mean words. > And now we have american media platforms saying 'yeah, it's fine to call for death to Russians'. Nope, they relaxed rules specifically with regard to Russian armed forces[0]. It would be pretty ridiculous to ban a Facebook user in Ukraine that call for the defense of their country by attacking the invading soldiers. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-facebook-instagram-temporarily-allow-calls-violence-against-russians-2022-03-10/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-facebook-inst...

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

Yep, this is something that Hitler did, when he seized the property of the Jews, but people are currently acting like nazis did, just against the russians now. This also sets another dangerous precendent, that you can just sieze property of someone you don't like... people protesting against covid measures? Seize their property. Protesting against a pipeline.. sieze their property! BLM, pro-trump, anti-trump, eco-protests, sieze everything!

user-the-name 5y ago

scotty79 5y ago

> Of course these individuals have links to their government, you think you can find some rich Americans who aren't somehow linked to their government? Yes. And if America invaded Mexico and started shelling their cities, I'd like the world to do exactly the same. Tank the dollar into the ground and seize all assets of American companies and individuals who own over a 100mln dollars and stop all trade. You are benefiting for your government, you are materialy responsible for its actions. In the modern world there's no other way to keep the world sane. If something is going bit too far is excluding Russian sport and culture. But even that it only mild overstepping since large number of Russians support their government and large part of Russian export of culture and sport is government subsidized. How strongly the world reacts now is the only thing that can curb future teritorial ambitions of other countries like China. The message should be clear. Starting a war will cost you, your economy and the wealth of your wealthiest. And the world will really shrink for you because you won't be able to enjoy its freedoms.

juanani 5y ago

beefield 5y ago

> seize private property Mind your tongue. It's not seizing, it is just a special legal operation. Absolutely nothing to do with seizing. I'd also want to remind what Karl Popper said about Paradox of Tolerance. " Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal."

gilbetron 5y ago

CTDOCodebases 5y ago

>So now it's just OK to seize private property of individuals without any even pretend due process? Who said there's no due process? That's why it's getting seized. Forfeiture happens later if it's proven laws have been broken. Besides, seizing property is better than more violence. Maybe if the Taliban seized the assets of rich american elites America would have left Afghanistan a lot sooner. >Our response to this is getting pretty fucking scary. I'm watching people lose all their private property or worse while the aggressor responsible for the situation threatens “consequences greater than any you have faced in history” to any nation who wishes to step in and stop this. Pretty scary huh? >We need to start dialing this back or we become what we're supposedly against. So no military intervention and sanctions. How is this supposed to end? I don't think apathy will do it.

ilammy 5y ago
> Besides, seizing property is better than more violence. Also, governments can un-seize property back after a while. It's not like this stuff gets immediately liquidated and funneled into defense spending or disaster relief or whatever.