4 ms·

Aren't S300 a rather old system from the 1980s? I doubt that there is anything still secret about those.

belter 5y ago
S300 is just the "brand". They have been upgraded over the years and it's a whole family. Of course it all depends on what version Ukraine has. I can't believe NATO would not love to have their hands on one, even an older generation one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system Edit: It looks like Greece ( a NATO member) also has S300 ( How did that happen !!?? ) and Turkey ( also NATO member) has the S400. Not sure if Turkey would allow close examination of their S400 capabilities, even as a NATO member.
- simonh 5y ago
  Greece, a NATO member, has operated the S-300 for over 20 years. Slovakia has them as well.
- throwawayffffas 5y ago
  > It looks like Greece ( a NATO member) also has S300 ( How did that happen !!?? ) It was a compromise after Cyprus got them, but choose not receive them after threats from Turkey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_S-300_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_S-300_crisis) Greece also has a number of other Russian SAM they bought after the 90s in the lull of the tensions with Russia.
- robbiep 5y ago
  Turkey getting S-400 was the reason for them being edged out of the F-35 program, so I don’t know how it all works but it’s not all hunky dory
  - blaser-waffle 5y ago
    They cut a deal to get the Pantsir, and there may have been strings attached. Plus, if you choose the next-gen AA over the next-gen fighter, there is an implication as to what you'll be shooting at. And since NATO chose the next-gen fighters...
  - throwawayffffas 5y ago
    The main worry has been that anti air missile systems are not isolated, to be effective they have to be integrated in a wide network with other missile systems, observation radars, flying radars, sensors on fighters, ships, etc. This is a complex computer network. The systems operated by Greece and inherited by the Soviet Union in the cases of other Nato members are rather old with limited computational resources and limited software developed back in the 80s-90s. In the case of the S-400 we are probably talking about millions of lines of code developed only years ago and potentially with an update schedule, there is absolutely no way to be sure there is no cutting edge malware that could either infiltrate the rest of the air-defense network, or just ship radar data back to Russia about the signatures of friendly f-35s, that's the real reason the US does not want to sell f-35s to Turkey. It's one thing to pick up a return from an f-35 on your radar and another to be getting a return and also it's actual position along with IFF information. This data would be invaluable to the Russians and could actually undermine the f-35s stealth performance in a potential conflict in the future.
- mrighele 5y ago
  > Greece ( a NATO member) also has S300 ( How did that happen !!?? ) The Greek S-300s come from Cyprus (which AFAIK is not a NATO member). They were handed over as a way to resolve the crisis with Turkey about the system itself [1] > Not sure if Turkey would allow close examination of their S400 capabilities, even as a NATO member. These days Turkey is a NATO member more de jure than de facto, so who knows. Since the acquisition of S400 caused the expulsion of Turkey from the F-35 program, maybe that could be a bargaining chip to re-enter it in some form ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_S-300_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_S-300_crisis
- sofixa 5y ago
  Bulgaria and Romania, also NATO members, have plenty of ex-Soviet hardware, including S-300s.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > S300 is just the "brand". They have been upgraded over the years and it's a whole family. Of course it all depends on what version Ukraine has. I can't believe NATO would not love to have their hands on one, even an older generation one. They already do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system#Evaluation-only_operators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system#Evaluatio...: > Evaluation-only operators > United States – S-300P purchased from Belarus (1994). The system was devoid of electronics.[147] S300V was purchased in Russia officially in the 1990s[clarification needed] (complete set (except for 9S32 GRILL PAN multi-channel guidance radar)).[148]

S300 is just the "brand". They have been upgraded over the years and it's a whole family. Of course it all depends on what version Ukraine has. I can't believe NATO would not love to have their hands on one, even an older generation one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system Edit: It looks like Greece ( a NATO member) also has S300 ( How did that happen !!?? ) and Turkey ( also NATO member) has the S400. Not sure if Turkey would allow close examination of their S400 capabilities, even as a NATO member.

simonh 5y ago
Greece, a NATO member, has operated the S-300 for over 20 years. Slovakia has them as well.
throwawayffffas 5y ago
> It looks like Greece ( a NATO member) also has S300 ( How did that happen !!?? ) It was a compromise after Cyprus got them, but choose not receive them after threats from Turkey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_S-300_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_S-300_crisis) Greece also has a number of other Russian SAM they bought after the 90s in the lull of the tensions with Russia.
robbiep 5y ago
Turkey getting S-400 was the reason for them being edged out of the F-35 program, so I don’t know how it all works but it’s not all hunky dory
- blaser-waffle 5y ago
  They cut a deal to get the Pantsir, and there may have been strings attached. Plus, if you choose the next-gen AA over the next-gen fighter, there is an implication as to what you'll be shooting at. And since NATO chose the next-gen fighters...
- throwawayffffas 5y ago
  The main worry has been that anti air missile systems are not isolated, to be effective they have to be integrated in a wide network with other missile systems, observation radars, flying radars, sensors on fighters, ships, etc. This is a complex computer network. The systems operated by Greece and inherited by the Soviet Union in the cases of other Nato members are rather old with limited computational resources and limited software developed back in the 80s-90s. In the case of the S-400 we are probably talking about millions of lines of code developed only years ago and potentially with an update schedule, there is absolutely no way to be sure there is no cutting edge malware that could either infiltrate the rest of the air-defense network, or just ship radar data back to Russia about the signatures of friendly f-35s, that's the real reason the US does not want to sell f-35s to Turkey. It's one thing to pick up a return from an f-35 on your radar and another to be getting a return and also it's actual position along with IFF information. This data would be invaluable to the Russians and could actually undermine the f-35s stealth performance in a potential conflict in the future.
mrighele 5y ago
> Greece ( a NATO member) also has S300 ( How did that happen !!?? ) The Greek S-300s come from Cyprus (which AFAIK is not a NATO member). They were handed over as a way to resolve the crisis with Turkey about the system itself [1] > Not sure if Turkey would allow close examination of their S400 capabilities, even as a NATO member. These days Turkey is a NATO member more de jure than de facto, so who knows. Since the acquisition of S400 caused the expulsion of Turkey from the F-35 program, maybe that could be a bargaining chip to re-enter it in some form ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_S-300_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_S-300_crisis
sofixa 5y ago
Bulgaria and Romania, also NATO members, have plenty of ex-Soviet hardware, including S-300s.
tablespoon 5y ago
> S300 is just the "brand". They have been upgraded over the years and it's a whole family. Of course it all depends on what version Ukraine has. I can't believe NATO would not love to have their hands on one, even an older generation one. They already do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system#Evaluation-only_operators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system#Evaluatio...: > Evaluation-only operators > United States – S-300P purchased from Belarus (1994). The system was devoid of electronics.[147] S300V was purchased in Russia officially in the 1990s[clarification needed] (complete set (except for 9S32 GRILL PAN multi-channel guidance radar)).[148]