5 ms·

instead of hoping or arguing for a raise that puts you and your colleagues in tech in-line with the market, just go out and interview for offers that should inc

instead of hoping or arguing for a raise that puts you and your colleagues in tech in-line with the market, just go out and interview for offers that should increase your total compensation 30-50%. I'm not sure if you're suggesting interviewing and then using the offer to go to your boss and ask for a raise, or if you're suggesting actually changing job, but at a company that really doesn't understand the value of retaining staff going to your boss with an offer that's 30% more than you're on now is going to mean you end up changing job. Few companies are willing to match that sort of increase. They'll let you go and try to find a replacement. This is the danger of using an offer to try to force your boss to give you a raise - a lot of bosses don't really understand the value you bring, so they'll say no. That's not a particularly big loss - you still get a 30% raise by changing role, but if you really like your job you should be aware of the risk.

wyclif 5y ago
but if you really like your job you should be aware of the risk I get your last line, I really do. But what I and many others have found by going through this COL raise cycle several times is that leaving for a role that offers 30%+ total comp isn't much of a risk. Think of what that offer signals. It's not just money. Does anyone really think that a company willing to make an offer like that is going to be a worse place to work at compared with your previous company in terms of non-salary perks, benefits, and quality of projects?
- borski 5y ago
  Sometimes, yes. Twice I’ve been offered roles that paid literally 2x my salary at that time (which was already pretty high), but did so because they knew the work was boring and they had trouble finding great engineers for it. Sometimes, the salary gap is literally there because the work is that much less interesting, and whether it’s attractive or not depends on your values.
  - satsuma 5y ago
    it could also be there because the work is for a company that some have moral objections to, like raytheon or meta. i think i remember a story on here that meta had to highball offers for similar positions when compared to their contemporaries because of how they've been torched in the media lately. i think of it like free agency in sports -- unsuccessful teams, teams in small/undesirable markets, and teams with unliked coaching/management will have to pay a premium to attract talent. why go to detroit, a basement dweller team with a coach who is universally reviled when you can go to los angeles and be on a winning team with a respected front office for a modest pay cut?
marcos100 5y ago
Whenever you interview at another company you're evaluating what is your worth in the market, instead of just guessing. It's always good, even if you don't intend to take the offer. If you show it to your boss, it means you intend to leave if he does not match it or offer some other perks. It's not forcing anything, it's negotiating.
- mooreds 5y ago
  > If you show it to your boss, it means you intend to leave if he does not match it or offer some other perks. It's not forcing anything, it's negotiating. How successful is this "negotiation" typically? I've not heard great things about taking counteroffers.
  - therealdrag0 5y ago
    > I've not heard I've seen these discussions a million times, and this is nearly always brought up in a 2nd/3rd hand way. I'm not criticizing you. But I think this is a big hole in our collective knowledge about effective strategy. e.g., how much truth is behind the meme? I suspect it varies a lot based on individual factors both in the eng and the manger and the company. And I think you're more likely to just not get a counter offer, than to get one and things turn sour.
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    > How successful is this "negotiation" typically? I've not heard great things about taking counteroffers. Are these "not great things" first-hand accounts? I've done it and it was great. I've had colleagues who've done it with success. And I've hand manager who recommend it when I wasn't happy with my increase. I feel like this kind of attitude is really damaging to peoples' careers and holds back wages. I have a friend who adores their job but refuses to accept a counter offer because they are afraid of being fired.
    - mooreds 5y ago
      > Are these "not great things" first-hand accounts? Nope, second hand accounts, mostly on slacks where I don't know the people talking. This is really useful to me, and I appreciate you sharing your first (and second) hand accounts.
alisonkisk 5y ago
mywittyname 5y ago
> They'll let you go and try to find a replacement. This is an oft-repeated trope, but it has little basis in reality. Engineering managers have trouble convincing their managers / HR to provide market raises, because most of them are stuck in their own little bubble where the current salaries are "market value." They buy salary information from companies who tell them what they want to hear, that the company's below market salaries are inline with the market. Wanna prove HR wrong? The only way to do that is to walk in with an offer letter. At that point, HR will look at the reliable salary reports and determine if that's viable. You aren't getting fired by negotiating for a market raise via offer letter. Also, good luck finding a replacement for less anyway.

wyclif 5y ago

but if you really like your job you should be aware of the risk I get your last line, I really do. But what I and many others have found by going through this COL raise cycle several times is that leaving for a role that offers 30%+ total comp isn't much of a risk. Think of what that offer signals. It's not just money. Does anyone really think that a company willing to make an offer like that is going to be a worse place to work at compared with your previous company in terms of non-salary perks, benefits, and quality of projects?

borski 5y ago
Sometimes, yes. Twice I’ve been offered roles that paid literally 2x my salary at that time (which was already pretty high), but did so because they knew the work was boring and they had trouble finding great engineers for it. Sometimes, the salary gap is literally there because the work is that much less interesting, and whether it’s attractive or not depends on your values.
- satsuma 5y ago
  it could also be there because the work is for a company that some have moral objections to, like raytheon or meta. i think i remember a story on here that meta had to highball offers for similar positions when compared to their contemporaries because of how they've been torched in the media lately. i think of it like free agency in sports -- unsuccessful teams, teams in small/undesirable markets, and teams with unliked coaching/management will have to pay a premium to attract talent. why go to detroit, a basement dweller team with a coach who is universally reviled when you can go to los angeles and be on a winning team with a respected front office for a modest pay cut?

marcos100 5y ago

Whenever you interview at another company you're evaluating what is your worth in the market, instead of just guessing. It's always good, even if you don't intend to take the offer. If you show it to your boss, it means you intend to leave if he does not match it or offer some other perks. It's not forcing anything, it's negotiating.

mooreds 5y ago
> If you show it to your boss, it means you intend to leave if he does not match it or offer some other perks. It's not forcing anything, it's negotiating. How successful is this "negotiation" typically? I've not heard great things about taking counteroffers.
- therealdrag0 5y ago
  > I've not heard I've seen these discussions a million times, and this is nearly always brought up in a 2nd/3rd hand way. I'm not criticizing you. But I think this is a big hole in our collective knowledge about effective strategy. e.g., how much truth is behind the meme? I suspect it varies a lot based on individual factors both in the eng and the manger and the company. And I think you're more likely to just not get a counter offer, than to get one and things turn sour.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  > How successful is this "negotiation" typically? I've not heard great things about taking counteroffers. Are these "not great things" first-hand accounts? I've done it and it was great. I've had colleagues who've done it with success. And I've hand manager who recommend it when I wasn't happy with my increase. I feel like this kind of attitude is really damaging to peoples' careers and holds back wages. I have a friend who adores their job but refuses to accept a counter offer because they are afraid of being fired.
  - mooreds 5y ago
    > Are these "not great things" first-hand accounts? Nope, second hand accounts, mostly on slacks where I don't know the people talking. This is really useful to me, and I appreciate you sharing your first (and second) hand accounts.

alisonkisk 5y ago

mywittyname 5y ago

> They'll let you go and try to find a replacement. This is an oft-repeated trope, but it has little basis in reality. Engineering managers have trouble convincing their managers / HR to provide market raises, because most of them are stuck in their own little bubble where the current salaries are "market value." They buy salary information from companies who tell them what they want to hear, that the company's below market salaries are inline with the market. Wanna prove HR wrong? The only way to do that is to walk in with an offer letter. At that point, HR will look at the reliable salary reports and determine if that's viable. You aren't getting fired by negotiating for a market raise via offer letter. Also, good luck finding a replacement for less anyway.