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Are you sure it is not in turn Ukrainian propaganda when they claim the opposite? We only get to see the Ukrainian version of things. I also don't think enemy t

Are you sure it is not in turn Ukrainian propaganda when they claim the opposite? We only get to see the Ukrainian version of things. I also don't think enemy tanks are the only military reasons for bombing something. Obviously there never is a "clean" war where only military is being hit with surgical strikes. Armies always promise that (like the US did in its invasions), but usually don't deliver.

astrange 5y ago
We're mainly seeing civilian reports on social media, not government reports. Oryx only posts multiple visual confirmed losses on either side.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  My impression is that we also get daily reports by Zelenskyy himself.
  - astrange 5y ago
    Sure they're available, but you don't have to watch them. I only see his daily extremely cool quote about needing more ammo and such. The Ukrainian MoD does release estimates of Russian losses, and they're probably fluffed 2-3x but not more than that. I think part of their strategy of appearing like a modern Western country involves actually seeming truthful unlike Russia/China.
trhway 5y ago
I watch the Russian TV too. They could have shown say an Ukrainian tank destroyed while hiding in the children sandbox or something like this. Yet, no, they can't show anything meaningful despite also having video cameras and supposedly controlling the airspace. I already shown an example of the crap they show https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30669531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30669531 - their celebrated high precision missiles being just dumb unguided bombs of the WWII period, and they lie right into your face about it.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  I can't see anything in your linked videos. In any case, dumb unguided bombs are not the same as deliberately targeting civilians. I also don't won't to take sides here, I merely point out that the information is rather one-sided. I personally also can not verify for example of that children's hospital had military stuff going on or not.
hans_castorp 5y ago
As Putin has lied to the world about essentially everything regarding Ukraine, I tend to not believe anything Putin or Russian officials tell us about the war.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  I wouldn't believe anything during war times.
  - xdennis 5y ago
    A key objective of Russian propaganda is to instill the notion that "nothing can be trusted". It has the same effect as telling people that "all candidates are the same": convince people to sit on the fence while you strengthen your side.
    - kergonath 5y ago
      It is a well known disinformation technique. Also used by terrorists to sow mistrust. Completely transparent in the current context.
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      A couple of days ago there was a job search for US PsyOps posted here on HN. What makes you think it is a specifically Russian strategy? It also could be a general feature of war or people quarrelling that both parties have different versions of events. They could even both be right in a sense, even if from afar their positions seem to contradict each other. Kurosawa's movie Rashomon comes to mind.
simonh 5y ago
The Russian version of events is very easy to access, and widely reported on in the west.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  Social Meia and search engines are downranking or censoring it, though. All I see (without TV) is general statements like Putin saying "war is going great".
- foverzar 5y ago
  > The Russian version of events is very easy to access While technically true, it is evident that people in the west have some mental barriers on visiting RUnet. > widely reported on in the west That doesn't seem to be the case. Quite a lot gets omitted or even blatantly misrepresented. People even have trouble verifying sources, because they are afraid of "Russian propaganda", despite the fact that their news medium has just referenced this particular piece of "propaganda".
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
Unfortunately there is a tremendous amount of propaganda being peddled by all actors involved in this war. This is just objective reality and the nature of war, though partisans on one side or the other want to pretend that everything "their side" states are facts while everything the "other side" states are lies. Amazingly, some of this propaganda is being openly pushed despite being debunked, by people who admit that it is false propaganda! The rationale offered is that fake stories are okay if they "increase morale" (by those who seemingly lack the capacity to understand the concept of credibility or its importance). Among unbiased observers with a grasp of the situation it is clear that Russia could be doing much more damage to Ukrainian cities, and we can only speculate as to why that is. They could be trying to save munitions, they could be doing it for public relations purposes, they could be doing it because they want relatively intact cities if they eventually succeed in taking over Ukraine, or any number of other reasons. The one thing you can be sure about, is that anyone who claims to know with certainty what is happening in the war zone, or what the "true" motivation of Russia is at the current time, can be safely disregarded as someone who is either confused or pushing an agenda.
- trhway 5y ago
  >Unfortunately there is a tremendous amount of propaganda being peddled by all actors involved in this war. There aren't "actors" nor "both sides" in that war. There is Russian Fascist regime which is conducting genocidal war in Ukraine to erase Ukrainian ethnic and national identity. And there is Ukrainian people fighting for their survival. The propaganda comes only from Russia, as compare to Russian propaganda (say publishing 10-20x smaller Russian losses than they really are among other obvious lies) the inconsistencies in Ukrainian information (say publishing 1.5x larger Russian losses than they really are) are just that - inconsistencies natural for a country being invaded and bombed by overwhelming military force. >This is just objective reality and the nature of war That is your reality. The reality of Russian propaganda. "We lie and they must be lying too". A reality of the people who couldn't understand how normal civilized people think and behave. >Among unbiased observers with a grasp of the situation it is clear that Russia could be doing much more damage to Ukrainian cities nice. I see that new propaganda spin getting peddled by several pro-Russian "propagandons" like you. Whole world - "You, Russians, are committing grievous war crimes by the indiscriminate bombing of civilians". And the new Russian response - "Russia could be doing much more damage to Ukrainian cities. Be grateful that it isn't", and that is a lie too as Russia seems to be running at the maximum of the available hardware.

astrange 5y ago

We're mainly seeing civilian reports on social media, not government reports. Oryx only posts multiple visual confirmed losses on either side.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
My impression is that we also get daily reports by Zelenskyy himself.
- astrange 5y ago
  Sure they're available, but you don't have to watch them. I only see his daily extremely cool quote about needing more ammo and such. The Ukrainian MoD does release estimates of Russian losses, and they're probably fluffed 2-3x but not more than that. I think part of their strategy of appearing like a modern Western country involves actually seeming truthful unlike Russia/China.

trhway 5y ago

I watch the Russian TV too. They could have shown say an Ukrainian tank destroyed while hiding in the children sandbox or something like this. Yet, no, they can't show anything meaningful despite also having video cameras and supposedly controlling the airspace. I already shown an example of the crap they show https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30669531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30669531 - their celebrated high precision missiles being just dumb unguided bombs of the WWII period, and they lie right into your face about it.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
I can't see anything in your linked videos. In any case, dumb unguided bombs are not the same as deliberately targeting civilians. I also don't won't to take sides here, I merely point out that the information is rather one-sided. I personally also can not verify for example of that children's hospital had military stuff going on or not.

hans_castorp 5y ago

As Putin has lied to the world about essentially everything regarding Ukraine, I tend to not believe anything Putin or Russian officials tell us about the war.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
I wouldn't believe anything during war times.
- xdennis 5y ago
  A key objective of Russian propaganda is to instill the notion that "nothing can be trusted". It has the same effect as telling people that "all candidates are the same": convince people to sit on the fence while you strengthen your side.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    It is a well known disinformation technique. Also used by terrorists to sow mistrust. Completely transparent in the current context.
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    A couple of days ago there was a job search for US PsyOps posted here on HN. What makes you think it is a specifically Russian strategy? It also could be a general feature of war or people quarrelling that both parties have different versions of events. They could even both be right in a sense, even if from afar their positions seem to contradict each other. Kurosawa's movie Rashomon comes to mind.

simonh 5y ago

The Russian version of events is very easy to access, and widely reported on in the west.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
Social Meia and search engines are downranking or censoring it, though. All I see (without TV) is general statements like Putin saying "war is going great".
foverzar 5y ago
> The Russian version of events is very easy to access While technically true, it is evident that people in the west have some mental barriers on visiting RUnet. > widely reported on in the west That doesn't seem to be the case. Quite a lot gets omitted or even blatantly misrepresented. People even have trouble verifying sources, because they are afraid of "Russian propaganda", despite the fact that their news medium has just referenced this particular piece of "propaganda".

StanislavPetrov 5y ago

Unfortunately there is a tremendous amount of propaganda being peddled by all actors involved in this war. This is just objective reality and the nature of war, though partisans on one side or the other want to pretend that everything "their side" states are facts while everything the "other side" states are lies. Amazingly, some of this propaganda is being openly pushed despite being debunked, by people who admit that it is false propaganda! The rationale offered is that fake stories are okay if they "increase morale" (by those who seemingly lack the capacity to understand the concept of credibility or its importance). Among unbiased observers with a grasp of the situation it is clear that Russia could be doing much more damage to Ukrainian cities, and we can only speculate as to why that is. They could be trying to save munitions, they could be doing it for public relations purposes, they could be doing it because they want relatively intact cities if they eventually succeed in taking over Ukraine, or any number of other reasons. The one thing you can be sure about, is that anyone who claims to know with certainty what is happening in the war zone, or what the "true" motivation of Russia is at the current time, can be safely disregarded as someone who is either confused or pushing an agenda.

trhway 5y ago
>Unfortunately there is a tremendous amount of propaganda being peddled by all actors involved in this war. There aren't "actors" nor "both sides" in that war. There is Russian Fascist regime which is conducting genocidal war in Ukraine to erase Ukrainian ethnic and national identity. And there is Ukrainian people fighting for their survival. The propaganda comes only from Russia, as compare to Russian propaganda (say publishing 10-20x smaller Russian losses than they really are among other obvious lies) the inconsistencies in Ukrainian information (say publishing 1.5x larger Russian losses than they really are) are just that - inconsistencies natural for a country being invaded and bombed by overwhelming military force. >This is just objective reality and the nature of war That is your reality. The reality of Russian propaganda. "We lie and they must be lying too". A reality of the people who couldn't understand how normal civilized people think and behave. >Among unbiased observers with a grasp of the situation it is clear that Russia could be doing much more damage to Ukrainian cities nice. I see that new propaganda spin getting peddled by several pro-Russian "propagandons" like you. Whole world - "You, Russians, are committing grievous war crimes by the indiscriminate bombing of civilians". And the new Russian response - "Russia could be doing much more damage to Ukrainian cities. Be grateful that it isn't", and that is a lie too as Russia seems to be running at the maximum of the available hardware.