5 ms·

HR isn't getting any memo, they are threatening me with disciplinary measures because I refuse to follow their return to the office location policy. They even p

by hirako2000 5y ago

HR isn't getting any memo, they are threatening me with disciplinary measures because I refuse to follow their return to the office location policy. They even proposed to cut my salary in half if I persist in preferring to stay remote to save on expenses. I think some fast growing tech companies are causing many developers to leave their jobs for better pastures, and that's mostly because some tech companies are performing poorly hence not keeping up with decent salary increases. Easy to get a job with a salary bump ? My recent attempts took well over 6 weeks each, with 3 to 5 interview rounds, mostly being screened by developers and managers having significant tech skills gaps, making the questioning a painful dissonance exercise. But sure. The market is hot for developers and compensation are on the rise.

KarlKemp 5y ago
You’re complaining that the company is unhappy, but not to the point of firing you, when you literally refuse to show up for work?
- saagarjha 5y ago
  Why show up for work if you can just do it?
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    Unfortunately for me, I've had a WFH gig since 2018, so Covid hasn't affected me all that much. But I do feel like I'm missing out on power-trip fantasies of getting to say "no" to the CEO's face about returning to the office in a Zoom call and grinning while knowing they have zero leverage because I'm the only domain-expert in an incredibly niche field at the company and they'd be unable to replace me - and if they did, I'd be able to walk-in to a higher paying job within a few months besides. Has anyone on the Internet recorded and shared their "negotiation" Zoom calls? Genuinely curious - not least for the entertainment factor...
    - saagarjha 5y ago
      I’d recommend asking for it politely, and if they don’t give it to you find another job that will let you work from home (a lot will be flexible during negotiation even if they generally say they prefer in-person roles) and then just come back saying (politely, of course) you are planning on leaving because you want remote work.
- zarzavat 5y ago
  That's the effective way to negotiate working conditions. If they showed up to the office then their managers would never approve anything. Best to look for another offer in case you get fired, though.
- verve_rat 5y ago
  And his employer refuses to negotiate. Fuckem.
- l30n4da5 5y ago
  > when you literally refuse to show up for work? doesnt sound like they refuse to show up for work. More like, is choosing to work from home. software engineering does not need to be done in the office.
saagarjha 5y ago
> Easy to get a job with a salary bump ? My recent attempts took well over 6 weeks each, with 3 to 5 interview rounds, mostly being screened by developers and managers having significant tech skills gaps, making the questioning a painful dissonance exercise. Perhaps my view is skewed but that seems like a very standard process at every large company? If they give me a raise after that without me having to negotiate, I’d definitely call that “easy”…
- nerdawson 5y ago
  If it feels easy, money was probably left on the table.
  - saagarjha 5y ago
    I would definitely recommend continuing to negotiate, especially by putting multiple offers on the table.
- hirako2000 5y ago
  that's my point, it remains the standard process. and I don't think it should be that way given how ineffective that process is. Some companies would hire who they consider the right candidate after the first or second interview. they recognise it won't be of much help to drill a candidate for 5h to 8h and make sure 5 or 6 people in the team all agree on that candidate to be a good fit, that this approach rather lead to hiring the wrong candidates. top performers may very well take another job in between since the process of 5 interviews takes obviously several weeks. Talented engineers may not even want to put down 5 to 10h scattered across 8 weeks for a job they may not even be offered due to a sudden hiring freeze or just being dislikes by that HR interviewed on the final round. Very standard process at large companies. so what? the article relates to the great resignation. Well this standard process is a contributing to the great resignation in tech. I'm temporarily resigning. until I need to earn a living again. in other words I don't want the job, even at 200k/year job given what they generally expect us to go through prior to getting hired and then on the job.
  - 5y ago
jrockway 5y ago
5 interview rounds sounds about normal, especially with the price tag being so high these days. Compare buying a loaf of bread to buying a house. The bread just gets plopped into your cart. The house involves visiting multiple times, inspections, lawyers, etc. because the amount of money is so high. You cost as much as a house, so the buyers are going to scrutinize a little bit. It's also worth mentioning, you say that you won't follow rules about where you're supposed to work and you think everyone interviewing you is dumber than you. People pick up on that attitude and read it as a red flag. You're going to be doing their code reviews, you're going to be commenting on their designs; if you seem unpleasant in the interviews, they're not going to hire you. Do be aware that this is a common symptom of burnout. If you're burned out, you're not going to be approaching the job hunt in a great state of mind, and it's going to hurt your chances. My recommendation is to heal on your current employer's time; look at new projects, taking a vacation, options for paid leave, ADA/FMLA allowances, etc.
- csomar 5y ago
  I disagree. If there is a significant gap between you and the company, that's as much as a red flag for you than them. Maybe the OP should focus more on companies where he feels integrated (remote working, leetcode b.s., using his own tools, emails instead of slack, etc...) I'm pretty sure there is something for everyone in this big world. Keeping yourself in a job where you have all these processes is what makes you burn out. The guy is probably responding to elements that might have made him burn out in the past.
  - jrockway 5y ago
    Very true. I think that two bad options for dealing with burnout are rage quitting without another job lined up and getting fired for show. They put you in a worse negotiating position and set you up to be burned out again when you're bitter about not getting paid enough.
    - hirako2000 5y ago
      I doubt not getting paid enough is the problem. although a contributing factor. it doesn't necessarily leads to bitterness, unless other factors come into play. Such as the scenario of providing feedback on how certain technical choices made by (supposedly technical) managers, in contradiction with senior architects and most senior developers, are going to cost a lot to reverse down the road, then when that's precisely what happens, and being explained the company isn't in a position to increase your salary, that manager gets promoted anyway, and 3 new hires joins in to help reverse the misguided technical direction, but of course new hires have no clue how anything was put together, so end up asking the long timers some help, help that is pretty much doing 80% of work to meet deadlines, and then of course the newer hires' manager ensures the credit goes to his new reports, so that he can at least give those a rise and retain them. and also control them since they still little exposure to the entire stack. the bitterness is usually not about the money, it's about how a few bad apples know how to play power games and ultimately ruins all the hard work of long ago gone managers who somehow made meritocracy at the core of the company. Those managers weren't very technical either, but they worked more ethically and shined at their role. note: this isn't my own anecdotal story. it's a theme I've started seeing more and more in the last 5y or so, plaguing mid size companies the most, those that reached a level of maturity.
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mooreds 5y ago
> HR isn't getting any memo, they are threatening me with disciplinary measures because I refuse to follow their return to the office location policy. They even proposed to cut my salary in half if I persist in preferring to stay remote to save on expenses. Thought you might enjoy this TikTok on the same topic: https://www.tiktok.com/@loewhaley/video/7061684115573067014?is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1&lang=en https://www.tiktok.com/@loewhaley/video/7061684115573067014?...
l30n4da5 5y ago
Honestly sounds like the HR dept at that company is woefully out of touch with the industry at this point. Almost sounds like they _want_ you to leave.
- hirako2000 5y ago
  they are out of touch with the industry, and also out of touch with the organisation itself. they are at the same time getting worried seeing alarming attrition figures. they are wondering how to improve retention.
  - l30n4da5 5y ago
    protip to them: a good way to improve retention is not to threaten your employees with docking 50% of their salary.
listenallyall 5y ago
6 whole weeks? The majority of labor in the US needs 6+ years to get 20-25% salary growth.

KarlKemp 5y ago

You’re complaining that the company is unhappy, but not to the point of firing you, when you literally refuse to show up for work?

saagarjha 5y ago
Why show up for work if you can just do it?
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  Unfortunately for me, I've had a WFH gig since 2018, so Covid hasn't affected me all that much. But I do feel like I'm missing out on power-trip fantasies of getting to say "no" to the CEO's face about returning to the office in a Zoom call and grinning while knowing they have zero leverage because I'm the only domain-expert in an incredibly niche field at the company and they'd be unable to replace me - and if they did, I'd be able to walk-in to a higher paying job within a few months besides. Has anyone on the Internet recorded and shared their "negotiation" Zoom calls? Genuinely curious - not least for the entertainment factor...
  - saagarjha 5y ago
    I’d recommend asking for it politely, and if they don’t give it to you find another job that will let you work from home (a lot will be flexible during negotiation even if they generally say they prefer in-person roles) and then just come back saying (politely, of course) you are planning on leaving because you want remote work.
zarzavat 5y ago
That's the effective way to negotiate working conditions. If they showed up to the office then their managers would never approve anything. Best to look for another offer in case you get fired, though.
verve_rat 5y ago
And his employer refuses to negotiate. Fuckem.
l30n4da5 5y ago
> when you literally refuse to show up for work? doesnt sound like they refuse to show up for work. More like, is choosing to work from home. software engineering does not need to be done in the office.

saagarjha 5y ago

> Easy to get a job with a salary bump ? My recent attempts took well over 6 weeks each, with 3 to 5 interview rounds, mostly being screened by developers and managers having significant tech skills gaps, making the questioning a painful dissonance exercise. Perhaps my view is skewed but that seems like a very standard process at every large company? If they give me a raise after that without me having to negotiate, I’d definitely call that “easy”…

nerdawson 5y ago
If it feels easy, money was probably left on the table.
- saagarjha 5y ago
  I would definitely recommend continuing to negotiate, especially by putting multiple offers on the table.
hirako2000 5y ago
that's my point, it remains the standard process. and I don't think it should be that way given how ineffective that process is. Some companies would hire who they consider the right candidate after the first or second interview. they recognise it won't be of much help to drill a candidate for 5h to 8h and make sure 5 or 6 people in the team all agree on that candidate to be a good fit, that this approach rather lead to hiring the wrong candidates. top performers may very well take another job in between since the process of 5 interviews takes obviously several weeks. Talented engineers may not even want to put down 5 to 10h scattered across 8 weeks for a job they may not even be offered due to a sudden hiring freeze or just being dislikes by that HR interviewed on the final round. Very standard process at large companies. so what? the article relates to the great resignation. Well this standard process is a contributing to the great resignation in tech. I'm temporarily resigning. until I need to earn a living again. in other words I don't want the job, even at 200k/year job given what they generally expect us to go through prior to getting hired and then on the job.
- 5y ago

jrockway 5y ago

5 interview rounds sounds about normal, especially with the price tag being so high these days. Compare buying a loaf of bread to buying a house. The bread just gets plopped into your cart. The house involves visiting multiple times, inspections, lawyers, etc. because the amount of money is so high. You cost as much as a house, so the buyers are going to scrutinize a little bit. It's also worth mentioning, you say that you won't follow rules about where you're supposed to work and you think everyone interviewing you is dumber than you. People pick up on that attitude and read it as a red flag. You're going to be doing their code reviews, you're going to be commenting on their designs; if you seem unpleasant in the interviews, they're not going to hire you. Do be aware that this is a common symptom of burnout. If you're burned out, you're not going to be approaching the job hunt in a great state of mind, and it's going to hurt your chances. My recommendation is to heal on your current employer's time; look at new projects, taking a vacation, options for paid leave, ADA/FMLA allowances, etc.

csomar 5y ago
I disagree. If there is a significant gap between you and the company, that's as much as a red flag for you than them. Maybe the OP should focus more on companies where he feels integrated (remote working, leetcode b.s., using his own tools, emails instead of slack, etc...) I'm pretty sure there is something for everyone in this big world. Keeping yourself in a job where you have all these processes is what makes you burn out. The guy is probably responding to elements that might have made him burn out in the past.
- jrockway 5y ago
  Very true. I think that two bad options for dealing with burnout are rage quitting without another job lined up and getting fired for show. They put you in a worse negotiating position and set you up to be burned out again when you're bitter about not getting paid enough.
  - hirako2000 5y ago
    I doubt not getting paid enough is the problem. although a contributing factor. it doesn't necessarily leads to bitterness, unless other factors come into play. Such as the scenario of providing feedback on how certain technical choices made by (supposedly technical) managers, in contradiction with senior architects and most senior developers, are going to cost a lot to reverse down the road, then when that's precisely what happens, and being explained the company isn't in a position to increase your salary, that manager gets promoted anyway, and 3 new hires joins in to help reverse the misguided technical direction, but of course new hires have no clue how anything was put together, so end up asking the long timers some help, help that is pretty much doing 80% of work to meet deadlines, and then of course the newer hires' manager ensures the credit goes to his new reports, so that he can at least give those a rise and retain them. and also control them since they still little exposure to the entire stack. the bitterness is usually not about the money, it's about how a few bad apples know how to play power games and ultimately ruins all the hard work of long ago gone managers who somehow made meritocracy at the core of the company. Those managers weren't very technical either, but they worked more ethically and shined at their role. note: this isn't my own anecdotal story. it's a theme I've started seeing more and more in the last 5y or so, plaguing mid size companies the most, those that reached a level of maturity.

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deleted 5y ago

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mooreds 5y ago

> HR isn't getting any memo, they are threatening me with disciplinary measures because I refuse to follow their return to the office location policy. They even proposed to cut my salary in half if I persist in preferring to stay remote to save on expenses. Thought you might enjoy this TikTok on the same topic: https://www.tiktok.com/@loewhaley/video/7061684115573067014?is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1&lang=en https://www.tiktok.com/@loewhaley/video/7061684115573067014?...

l30n4da5 5y ago

Honestly sounds like the HR dept at that company is woefully out of touch with the industry at this point. Almost sounds like they _want_ you to leave.

hirako2000 5y ago
they are out of touch with the industry, and also out of touch with the organisation itself. they are at the same time getting worried seeing alarming attrition figures. they are wondering how to improve retention.
- l30n4da5 5y ago
  protip to them: a good way to improve retention is not to threaten your employees with docking 50% of their salary.

listenallyall 5y ago

6 whole weeks? The majority of labor in the US needs 6+ years to get 20-25% salary growth.