4 ms·

an under appreciated consequence of remote working is the radical reduction of switching costs to a new job. In the on-premise world, this would require all so

an under appreciated consequence of remote working is the radical reduction of switching costs to a new job. In the on-premise world, this would require all sorts of calculations outside the immediate considerations of the job itself - the commute, the parking, the new office amenities vs old office amenities, the degree with which you 'click' with colleagues - all of this is reduced or eliminated in the world of remote work. You will be sitting at the same (home) desk, at the same set up, probably using the same tech environment. It will make switching easier, cos it means less.

pjmlp 5y ago
Yeah, but it also makes more likely to replace the position with the Wipros of the world.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  I have found, multiple times, that externalisation of higher level roles hurts product development. This is less obvious in traditional entities, where they may care more about yearly checks and balances than long term consequences, but it eventually hits them still. Not saying that there isn’t great and cheaper talent out there, but they aren’t usually fond of these big meat machines that are IT consulting companies.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    All the time I saw some situations escalate they ended up being fixed by upper management with some give and take agreements. The hard truth, is that most companies are like consumers that go routinely buy stuff from 1 euro shops.
- hunglee2 5y ago
  yeah maybe. Definitely remote is a stepping stone to what we used to call 'off shore'. Only govt legislation will stop this, though with the decoupling we are seeing from the Russo-Ukraine war we can expect govts to do precisely this
- spaniard89277 5y ago
  Why a, say, Portuguese pro, would go and work in some american meat grinder? He's also able to choose. Here in Spain I know a handful of devs working remotely for american companies. It's true none of them get +100k but they are about 70-80k and say it's pretty pleasant experience, so I guess they also have the typical EU holidays package + some other niceties. So I guess that while they're cheaper for those american companies, it's not everything about cost, otherwise they could go somewhere else and pay 20k. It has to be, because AFAIK for american companies the attitude towards work here in europe is prety alien. Every time an american company has tried to set up in Europe and manage their operations as in america it has failed.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    You get a Portuguese company acting as nearshore frontend for a offshore one in India. The Portuguese company acts as gateway and code review (aka fixes) the deliveries, while ensures that the costs remain low. The actual owning company then regularly threatens the Portugue one to fully move into offshore if they cannot keep up. Actual scenario, I will refrain from naming which ones.
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      This is a completely different situation than what I and tons of other EU devs working with US companies are. We're not in siloed team with only communication happening between layers of managers highly above people doing actual work. We're just embedded into normal US teams and communicate directly with American engineers, managers etc. Everyone works remote. Only difference is that I work 11-19 and turn off Slack at 21.
    - spaniard89277 5y ago
      If were an american company, why would I pay for such setup? Provided I have the resources to screen it. That scenario is a time bomb, and if the americans are the ones putting the money in the table they'll get bitten by it. Anyway, nowadays with services like remote.com or similar ones, you can hire and manage your own talent without the outsourcing company overhead (not affiliated with then).
- ok_dad 5y ago
  > replace the position with the Wipros of the world They'll do this and suffer. I was hired in my previous job specifically to fix a bunch of code coming out of a similar contract organization (I actually had to mostly toss it away). It might save money at first, but the result will be 10x worse at 2/3 the cost of a regular full time developer.
dgellow 5y ago
For European contractors there is currently so much demand from US companies. And they have no problem paying very high rates for the region, it’s such a different dynamic than dealing with European clients. The last 2 contracts I negotiated with US clients went like this: - “My rate is X, good for you?” - “Let’s make it X +20%. What do you think? We want to be sure you’re available and keep work capacity for us.” Which makes me realize I still have plenty of room to push the number even higher.
- sdevonoes 5y ago
  What about tz differences? Do you have to adapt to their tz or would they adapt to yours?
  - dgellow 5y ago
    I sometime shift my day a bit to adjust to their time zone, mostly for long calls with people west coast (8h of time difference). It hasn’t been an issue so far, we have enough overlap and async communication works well for software development.
- WJW 5y ago
  What kind of platform/recruiter do you use for acquiring US clients? I have mostly relied on local meetups etc, but for obvious reasons they don't attract a lot of US attendance.
  - dgellow 5y ago
    So, almost all my US contacts come from HN one way or another. Over the years I contacted people here after they mentioned they may need some help for a project (only when I feel we could be a good match), with great success. People here have fantastic connections and will share your contact around if they had a good experience working with you, or tell you when their friends are looking for some help. Lot of new companies are looking for help to get started with their project and HN is one of the place where they advertise/create awareness, that makes it a great environment to get in contact with potential clients. But don’t spam people, only contact when you feel you have a genuine interest for what they do.
playcache 5y ago
very much. I have always worked in open source, so the joke has always been 'change of badge / laptop, but business as usual'. This is playing out widely now. Onboarding of a new worker now involves mailing a laptop and some swag to their house, getting them on a vpn, so they can be up and running in just a few days.

pjmlp 5y ago

Yeah, but it also makes more likely to replace the position with the Wipros of the world.

manuelabeledo 5y ago
I have found, multiple times, that externalisation of higher level roles hurts product development. This is less obvious in traditional entities, where they may care more about yearly checks and balances than long term consequences, but it eventually hits them still. Not saying that there isn’t great and cheaper talent out there, but they aren’t usually fond of these big meat machines that are IT consulting companies.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  All the time I saw some situations escalate they ended up being fixed by upper management with some give and take agreements. The hard truth, is that most companies are like consumers that go routinely buy stuff from 1 euro shops.
hunglee2 5y ago
yeah maybe. Definitely remote is a stepping stone to what we used to call 'off shore'. Only govt legislation will stop this, though with the decoupling we are seeing from the Russo-Ukraine war we can expect govts to do precisely this
spaniard89277 5y ago
Why a, say, Portuguese pro, would go and work in some american meat grinder? He's also able to choose. Here in Spain I know a handful of devs working remotely for american companies. It's true none of them get +100k but they are about 70-80k and say it's pretty pleasant experience, so I guess they also have the typical EU holidays package + some other niceties. So I guess that while they're cheaper for those american companies, it's not everything about cost, otherwise they could go somewhere else and pay 20k. It has to be, because AFAIK for american companies the attitude towards work here in europe is prety alien. Every time an american company has tried to set up in Europe and manage their operations as in america it has failed.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  You get a Portuguese company acting as nearshore frontend for a offshore one in India. The Portuguese company acts as gateway and code review (aka fixes) the deliveries, while ensures that the costs remain low. The actual owning company then regularly threatens the Portugue one to fully move into offshore if they cannot keep up. Actual scenario, I will refrain from naming which ones.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    This is a completely different situation than what I and tons of other EU devs working with US companies are. We're not in siloed team with only communication happening between layers of managers highly above people doing actual work. We're just embedded into normal US teams and communicate directly with American engineers, managers etc. Everyone works remote. Only difference is that I work 11-19 and turn off Slack at 21.
  - spaniard89277 5y ago
    If were an american company, why would I pay for such setup? Provided I have the resources to screen it. That scenario is a time bomb, and if the americans are the ones putting the money in the table they'll get bitten by it. Anyway, nowadays with services like remote.com or similar ones, you can hire and manage your own talent without the outsourcing company overhead (not affiliated with then).
ok_dad 5y ago
> replace the position with the Wipros of the world They'll do this and suffer. I was hired in my previous job specifically to fix a bunch of code coming out of a similar contract organization (I actually had to mostly toss it away). It might save money at first, but the result will be 10x worse at 2/3 the cost of a regular full time developer.

dgellow 5y ago

For European contractors there is currently so much demand from US companies. And they have no problem paying very high rates for the region, it’s such a different dynamic than dealing with European clients. The last 2 contracts I negotiated with US clients went like this: - “My rate is X, good for you?” - “Let’s make it X +20%. What do you think? We want to be sure you’re available and keep work capacity for us.” Which makes me realize I still have plenty of room to push the number even higher.

sdevonoes 5y ago
What about tz differences? Do you have to adapt to their tz or would they adapt to yours?
- dgellow 5y ago
  I sometime shift my day a bit to adjust to their time zone, mostly for long calls with people west coast (8h of time difference). It hasn’t been an issue so far, we have enough overlap and async communication works well for software development.
WJW 5y ago
What kind of platform/recruiter do you use for acquiring US clients? I have mostly relied on local meetups etc, but for obvious reasons they don't attract a lot of US attendance.
- dgellow 5y ago
  So, almost all my US contacts come from HN one way or another. Over the years I contacted people here after they mentioned they may need some help for a project (only when I feel we could be a good match), with great success. People here have fantastic connections and will share your contact around if they had a good experience working with you, or tell you when their friends are looking for some help. Lot of new companies are looking for help to get started with their project and HN is one of the place where they advertise/create awareness, that makes it a great environment to get in contact with potential clients. But don’t spam people, only contact when you feel you have a genuine interest for what they do.

playcache 5y ago

very much. I have always worked in open source, so the joke has always been 'change of badge / laptop, but business as usual'. This is playing out widely now. Onboarding of a new worker now involves mailing a laptop and some swag to their house, getting them on a vpn, so they can be up and running in just a few days.