6 ms·

My path to CS and opinions on CS Education

28 points by luu 5y ago

badRNG 5y ago
> SheCodes which to me seems to prey on women trying to transition to a career in tech by teaching them web development (people specializing in web development is increasing quickly, and the field is becoming very inflated. Telling people that learning web development will get them a job or high salary may not be true in a few years. Kind of an aside, but what's the consensus on this? It does seem like folks are swarming to web development nowadays (though it's felt like that for many years now, and market growth thus far seems to outpace the newcomers.)
- runnerup 5y ago
  I've tried to become competent in anything but front-end webdev, yet the jobs all seem to be in React/etc. Looking through recent HN Who's Hiring, there are very few postings for "embedded / STM32 / FreeRTOS", and tons for "React". The pay seems to be much better for webdev also!
- anonporridge 5y ago
  It's only going to keep getting easier as the tools get better.
- tylergetsay 5y ago
  There's a large amount of room for developers with low level knowledge (data structures are a huge gap for new devs) and devs that know how to manage a codebase over years.
- cultofmetatron 5y ago
  there's a huge push in general for nodejs/frontend. Frankly its a bit disappointing as there are other technologies that can better serve certain uses but people hire for js because its "easier to find developers" and most people wanting to make a quick buck never venture beyond it because the jobs are all in js/frontend. Thats not to say that frontend is an easy skill. doing it well requires a certain skillset. the real danger of all this frontend focus is that its easy to do frontend good enough while being objectively bad. Makes it hard to find really exceptional developers.
- tuankiet65 5y ago
  All I can see right now is that most positions are web development related, so that's where people will flock to.
ozzythecat 5y ago
> iOS app development is already inaccessible in it's nature; only MacBooks can run the required software (XCode) that is needed to develop an iOS app. If you don't have access to a laptop, you sure aren't buying a MacBook as your first. You can usually purchase a second hand machine. Mac Minis are listed on EBay for < $400. Granted that’s still too high in much of the developing world, but to argue that any curriculum should focus on only the lowest common denominator seems short sighted. > Another program I don't like is SheCodes which to me seems to prey on women trying to transition to a career in tech by teaching them web development (people specializing in web development is increasing quickly, and the field is becoming very inflated. Telling people that learning web development will get them a job or high salary may not be true in a few years. I also personally don't like web development). Oh, and it's not free. I’d argue there’s a significant shortage of people who can actually problem solve and build the right solution. Tons of people have flocked towards web development or programming in general, but are they skilled enough to actually get hired? In my experience, no. Learning React basics doesn’t mean you’re a quality hire. And it’s also not clear why the author is mixing in their personal feelings on web development. > For instance, one three-week KodeWithKlossy program cost 8795 USD. Yeah that’s obscene. There are plenty of free or significantly cheaper alternatives online. On their actual website, I see: > Kode with Klossy’s flagship program provides the opportunity for young women and non-binary individuals across the country, ages 13-18, to attend free two week bootcamps that introduce them to key computer science concepts and skills. Not sure where the $8K+ figure came from, but I thought this organization is a non profit
- CSSer 5y ago
  > And it’s also not clear why the author is mixing in their personal feelings on web development. The author strikes me as a young student still trying to figure things out in undergrad. A lot of the post/article reads like a journal entry. I wouldn’t fault her for not having it all figured out yet. I think you’re completely right about the shortage and skill gap. I think she’s more right than she knows about the predatory practices, and I think in that sense both your opinions coalesce. I think if her prediction misses the mark it’ll likely be because she doesn’t have our experience of working in the field and seeing first-hand just how bad these candidates are relative to what we know it actually takes to succeed. Without that insight I could see how it looks like Web Dev is doomed to implode because of everyone flocking to it. Anyway, her choice of parentheses to make the statement makes it seems like she’s somewhat aware of this potential blindspot. That may or may not have been intentional.
TameAntelope 5y ago
> Another issue is that these programs (KodeWithKlossy and SheCodes) only teach "front-end" web development, which is quickly becoming a woman dominated field. Is that good? I don't think so. Historically, when women enter certain fields, it "lowers" the value of it. Front-end development is now seen as "easier" then backend or frontend. I'm a firm believer women should not pick up front-end as their "path" into tech. What? I don't understand this on a bunch of levels. * What's the difference between "front-end" and "frontend"? * Woman-dominated? I have been interviewing for a bunch of "frontend" roles and I've gotten a grand total of one woman to apply. Some of that's on me for not recruiting in woman-friendlier places, but this is not my experience at all. * Frontend has been "easier" for my ~20 years in the field. A lot fewer things can go wrong, with a lot lower stakes. Women entering "frontend" development aren't newly creating this sense, it's been there the whole time. I definitely want to improve my recruitment pipeline to involve more women, but some of the stuff here just seems very different from my experiences. I also firmly disagree with discouraging people from pursuing an area of software dev they find interesting; if a woman wants to write code on the frontend, why on earth would anyone want to discourage that?!
- melony 5y ago
  Because then it will be regarded a "softer" engineering domain and the market will implicitly price the alleged lack of rigor accordingly. Just take a look at the gender ratio for "human computer interaction (HCI)" students in CS academia, aka UI/UX designers. It is important that we don't funnel aspiring female engineers into a less rigorous domain just because it is more popular with their gender. The education system should not reinforce stereotypes at such an early stage. If they still want dedicate their career to fiddling with CSS variables after 4 years of education, great. They can do that after mastering foundational CS concepts so the system doesn't accidentally segregate and create a caste of second-class workers.
  - jahewson 5y ago
    You’re really just saying that a CS degree should be used to gatekeep frontend work.
tayo42 5y ago
There's a lot of random topics in here to comment on heh > But computer science is also math; it's basically applied math, so we should also teach computer science in a similar way that math is taught. Math education is horrible, idk why you would model anything off it. So many people seem to think they're not good at math, just because teachers and they way its taught isn't good. I think comp sci and software engineering need to be separated some how, like physics and engineering. Also programming needs to be its own thing, separate from engineering. Like a life skill. I can use a hammer and some saws and make some simple things or do some repairs, but im not an engineer and definitely not a physicist. More people should be able to hack some thing together with python, without feeling like they need to be an engineer or a computer scientist.
- jahewson 5y ago
  1000% agree. I went into computer science because it was the only subject high school wasn’t able to ruin, as they didn’t teach it.
dchftcs 5y ago
It's a good anecdote, but in some places it tries to generalize a bit too much. This is a person that has an intrinsic interest in science and technology. This is an outlier among the general population. For children who are more attracted to less abstract concepts, or people who just want to find a better job, quick gratification and fast learning cycles are important, which is why front-end web development dominates the curriculum of the short-term courses mentioned in the article. It's a good point though that the industry, by underselling the level of sophistication of CS, might be missing out on people who (like the author of this anecdote) could have the drive and talent to truly succeed, arguably the people who they most eagerly want to make replaceable. >Another issue is that these programs (KodeWithKlossy and SheCodes) only teach "front-end" web development, which is quickly becoming a woman dominated field. Is that good? I don't think so. Historically, when women enter certain fields, it "lowers" the value of it. Front-end development is now seen as "easier" then backend or frontend. There's a danger in seeing this too much from the lenses of gender problems. Frontend development has always been seen as easier than backend, probably only except during the dawn of GUIs, in games, or if you're building React.
lliamander 5y ago
I also didn't learn to program until late in college. Worse still, I'd tried to teach myself to program in high school and failed. I was definitely intimidated by my classmates who had been doing it for years, and I struggled with concepts like recursion. But more than 10 years later and I'm doing just fine. Not only am I gainfully employed as a programmer, but I've had the pleasure of working on some pretty sophisticated systems. It just starts by trusting that you can (eventually) learn the material, and just work at it until you do. That being said, I like Dr. Bob Harper's description of CMU's CS program as essentially and extension of algebra, and that it doesn't particularly favor students who have experience coding. > This quote drives the point home that programs like KodeWithKlossy don't seem to really focus on helping those who are economically unable to seek out CS education, but those who have the money; as long as there are women/gender minorities in our program (who can pay), who cares if they actually need help accessing CS programs or are the groups of people that need the most help? This seems consistent with the observation made by the journalist Douglas Murray that affirmative action-type programs invariably serve to benefit only the most privileged members of the target minority group.

28 points by luu 5y ago

> SheCodes which to me seems to prey on women trying to transition to a career in tech by teaching them web development (people specializing in web development is increasing quickly, and the field is becoming very inflated. Telling people that learning web development will get them a job or high salary may not be true in a few years. Kind of an aside, but what's the consensus on this? It does seem like folks are swarming to web development nowadays (though it's felt like that for many years now, and market growth thus far seems to outpace the newcomers.)

runnerup 5y ago
I've tried to become competent in anything but front-end webdev, yet the jobs all seem to be in React/etc. Looking through recent HN Who's Hiring, there are very few postings for "embedded / STM32 / FreeRTOS", and tons for "React". The pay seems to be much better for webdev also!
anonporridge 5y ago
It's only going to keep getting easier as the tools get better.
tylergetsay 5y ago
There's a large amount of room for developers with low level knowledge (data structures are a huge gap for new devs) and devs that know how to manage a codebase over years.
cultofmetatron 5y ago
there's a huge push in general for nodejs/frontend. Frankly its a bit disappointing as there are other technologies that can better serve certain uses but people hire for js because its "easier to find developers" and most people wanting to make a quick buck never venture beyond it because the jobs are all in js/frontend. Thats not to say that frontend is an easy skill. doing it well requires a certain skillset. the real danger of all this frontend focus is that its easy to do frontend good enough while being objectively bad. Makes it hard to find really exceptional developers.
tuankiet65 5y ago
All I can see right now is that most positions are web development related, so that's where people will flock to.

ozzythecat 5y ago

> iOS app development is already inaccessible in it's nature; only MacBooks can run the required software (XCode) that is needed to develop an iOS app. If you don't have access to a laptop, you sure aren't buying a MacBook as your first. You can usually purchase a second hand machine. Mac Minis are listed on EBay for < $400. Granted that’s still too high in much of the developing world, but to argue that any curriculum should focus on only the lowest common denominator seems short sighted. > Another program I don't like is SheCodes which to me seems to prey on women trying to transition to a career in tech by teaching them web development (people specializing in web development is increasing quickly, and the field is becoming very inflated. Telling people that learning web development will get them a job or high salary may not be true in a few years. I also personally don't like web development). Oh, and it's not free. I’d argue there’s a significant shortage of people who can actually problem solve and build the right solution. Tons of people have flocked towards web development or programming in general, but are they skilled enough to actually get hired? In my experience, no. Learning React basics doesn’t mean you’re a quality hire. And it’s also not clear why the author is mixing in their personal feelings on web development. > For instance, one three-week KodeWithKlossy program cost 8795 USD. Yeah that’s obscene. There are plenty of free or significantly cheaper alternatives online. On their actual website, I see: > Kode with Klossy’s flagship program provides the opportunity for young women and non-binary individuals across the country, ages 13-18, to attend free two week bootcamps that introduce them to key computer science concepts and skills. Not sure where the $8K+ figure came from, but I thought this organization is a non profit

CSSer 5y ago
> And it’s also not clear why the author is mixing in their personal feelings on web development. The author strikes me as a young student still trying to figure things out in undergrad. A lot of the post/article reads like a journal entry. I wouldn’t fault her for not having it all figured out yet. I think you’re completely right about the shortage and skill gap. I think she’s more right than she knows about the predatory practices, and I think in that sense both your opinions coalesce. I think if her prediction misses the mark it’ll likely be because she doesn’t have our experience of working in the field and seeing first-hand just how bad these candidates are relative to what we know it actually takes to succeed. Without that insight I could see how it looks like Web Dev is doomed to implode because of everyone flocking to it. Anyway, her choice of parentheses to make the statement makes it seems like she’s somewhat aware of this potential blindspot. That may or may not have been intentional.

TameAntelope 5y ago

> Another issue is that these programs (KodeWithKlossy and SheCodes) only teach "front-end" web development, which is quickly becoming a woman dominated field. Is that good? I don't think so. Historically, when women enter certain fields, it "lowers" the value of it. Front-end development is now seen as "easier" then backend or frontend. I'm a firm believer women should not pick up front-end as their "path" into tech. What? I don't understand this on a bunch of levels. * What's the difference between "front-end" and "frontend"? * Woman-dominated? I have been interviewing for a bunch of "frontend" roles and I've gotten a grand total of one woman to apply. Some of that's on me for not recruiting in woman-friendlier places, but this is not my experience at all. * Frontend has been "easier" for my ~20 years in the field. A lot fewer things can go wrong, with a lot lower stakes. Women entering "frontend" development aren't newly creating this sense, it's been there the whole time. I definitely want to improve my recruitment pipeline to involve more women, but some of the stuff here just seems very different from my experiences. I also firmly disagree with discouraging people from pursuing an area of software dev they find interesting; if a woman wants to write code on the frontend, why on earth would anyone want to discourage that?!

melony 5y ago
Because then it will be regarded a "softer" engineering domain and the market will implicitly price the alleged lack of rigor accordingly. Just take a look at the gender ratio for "human computer interaction (HCI)" students in CS academia, aka UI/UX designers. It is important that we don't funnel aspiring female engineers into a less rigorous domain just because it is more popular with their gender. The education system should not reinforce stereotypes at such an early stage. If they still want dedicate their career to fiddling with CSS variables after 4 years of education, great. They can do that after mastering foundational CS concepts so the system doesn't accidentally segregate and create a caste of second-class workers.
- jahewson 5y ago
  You’re really just saying that a CS degree should be used to gatekeep frontend work.

tayo42 5y ago

There's a lot of random topics in here to comment on heh > But computer science is also math; it's basically applied math, so we should also teach computer science in a similar way that math is taught. Math education is horrible, idk why you would model anything off it. So many people seem to think they're not good at math, just because teachers and they way its taught isn't good. I think comp sci and software engineering need to be separated some how, like physics and engineering. Also programming needs to be its own thing, separate from engineering. Like a life skill. I can use a hammer and some saws and make some simple things or do some repairs, but im not an engineer and definitely not a physicist. More people should be able to hack some thing together with python, without feeling like they need to be an engineer or a computer scientist.

jahewson 5y ago
1000% agree. I went into computer science because it was the only subject high school wasn’t able to ruin, as they didn’t teach it.

dchftcs 5y ago

It's a good anecdote, but in some places it tries to generalize a bit too much. This is a person that has an intrinsic interest in science and technology. This is an outlier among the general population. For children who are more attracted to less abstract concepts, or people who just want to find a better job, quick gratification and fast learning cycles are important, which is why front-end web development dominates the curriculum of the short-term courses mentioned in the article. It's a good point though that the industry, by underselling the level of sophistication of CS, might be missing out on people who (like the author of this anecdote) could have the drive and talent to truly succeed, arguably the people who they most eagerly want to make replaceable. >Another issue is that these programs (KodeWithKlossy and SheCodes) only teach "front-end" web development, which is quickly becoming a woman dominated field. Is that good? I don't think so. Historically, when women enter certain fields, it "lowers" the value of it. Front-end development is now seen as "easier" then backend or frontend. There's a danger in seeing this too much from the lenses of gender problems. Frontend development has always been seen as easier than backend, probably only except during the dawn of GUIs, in games, or if you're building React.

lliamander 5y ago

I also didn't learn to program until late in college. Worse still, I'd tried to teach myself to program in high school and failed. I was definitely intimidated by my classmates who had been doing it for years, and I struggled with concepts like recursion. But more than 10 years later and I'm doing just fine. Not only am I gainfully employed as a programmer, but I've had the pleasure of working on some pretty sophisticated systems. It just starts by trusting that you can (eventually) learn the material, and just work at it until you do. That being said, I like Dr. Bob Harper's description of CMU's CS program as essentially and extension of algebra, and that it doesn't particularly favor students who have experience coding. > This quote drives the point home that programs like KodeWithKlossy don't seem to really focus on helping those who are economically unable to seek out CS education, but those who have the money; as long as there are women/gender minorities in our program (who can pay), who cares if they actually need help accessing CS programs or are the groups of people that need the most help? This seems consistent with the observation made by the journalist Douglas Murray that affirmative action-type programs invariably serve to benefit only the most privileged members of the target minority group.