8 ms·

Gemini is a new internet protocol

67 points by modinfo 5y ago

robobro 5y ago
What does this blog article really do that the official page doesn't?
omginternets 5y ago
I understand the impulse to simplify things, but there’s an important question that needs to be addressed before doing so. It is the following: why won’t this new, simple protocol accumulate the same complexity as it’s predecessor over time?
- cartesius13 5y ago
  The Gemini guys actually think about this a lot so they're working to make the protocol the least extensible as possible or not extensible at all. They plan to freeze the spec forever after 1.0
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    That doesn't stop anything. There is nothing stopping me from writing up a spec that says "Put an annotation like this in your gemini file and with tools supporting this spec addition, you will see an image embedded". For non compliant browsers you will just see plain text and for new extended browsers you will see an inline image.
    - Pink2DS 5y ago
      I agree that this is possible and that the Gemini project might be futile because of this.
  - oofbey 5y ago
    Sounds like they want to guarantee this never actually catches on. Pretty sure they will succeed.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  Because no one actually uses Gemini other than to write smug posts about how text only is the best.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tenebrisalietum 5y ago
  One thing: a version number is explicitly not supported by the protocol or standard. There is only one Gemini version now and forever.
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    There is realistically no version numbers on the modern web. Its a living standard where new features come in whenever. The underlying communications spec is versioned but this has little to do with possible features and only needs to be updated for performance and security.
    - oofbey 5y ago
      That's true for HTML, but not HTTP. HTML is organic - here's your document, good luck making it work. HTTP is clearly versioned with significantly different changing features at each revision.
      - Gigachad 5y ago
        You don't need to touch HTTP to extend features though. Most of what people care about is the HTML/CSS/JS web api which can extend at any time. No user or developer was ever excited about a new version of HTTP which really only helps performance.
SamWhited 5y ago
I like some of the ideas behind Gemini, but I'll never get onboard with something made by an individual and not actually standardized by a reputable standards body. BDFL type software will only end up not being accessible to some people and not thinking about concerns that aren't important to the one or two people controlling it (even if a larger open source community develops around it; it's still largely controlled by the person who set the initial direction and did most of the work initially with no collaboration or cooperation from others).
- RodgerTheGreat 5y ago
  Could you provide an example of a standards body along the lines of what you would accept which is not primarily comprised of and funded by commercial interests?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - SamWhited 5y ago
    This is a bit of a straw man; many (most?) standards bodies aren't driven by commercial interest. I agree that there are some that are (3gp, probably wc3 though I'm not super familiar with them I just hear people complain about that as a problem all the time), but many if not most are almost entirely volunteer or have a more mixed way of doing things (ie. the within the IETF plenty of companies put their people in the bigger working groups, but also many volunteers who aren't affiliated with a company driving the work are also a part of them or completely control them). Others take an absolutely-no-company approach like the XSF who only allows three people who work for the same company to join and requires all members to be acting of their own accord and not on behalf of a company. Sure, some standards bodies have a problem with commercial interests, but it's not the big problem your question implies.
- enos_feedler 5y ago
  Getting to the point of being stamped by a reputable standards body is something that comes after experimenting in public for a while in a non standard way
JasonFruit 5y ago
I've been enjoying Gemini using Lagrange on desktop and Deedum on mobile. It's reminiscent of the early web: the kind of people who put up Gemini capsules are not talking about the kind of stuff you see on every popular website, so you get detailed idiosyncratic takes on history, technology, politics, religion, crafts — all manner of things. For example, I'm ardently opposed to a particular political point of view, and using Gemini I've found a lot of interesting, introspective writing by people who adhere to it that has given me a new, if not more positive, perspective that I could not have gained on the more public web. It's worth checking out.
- omginternets 5y ago
  Can you suggest any links? I’d be curious to read some of the political discussions you mentioned.
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    Just go to gemini://geminispace.info/ and start searching. You'll find more interesting things on your own.
- divbzero 5y ago
  I find it interesting and admirable when people can strongly disagree but still have some empathy for opposing views. Any chance you could share the subject matter of the viewpoints you reference? Maybe even describing the points of view without stating which view you’re ardently against?
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    I'm a conservative libertarian, reading what communists have to say for themselves.
    - Pink2DS 5y ago
      Thank you for that♥
shp0ngle 5y ago
Main problem of Gemini is that it's read-only, by design. The author of the protocol didn't want to add forms etc, as that adds complexity; but as a result, there is no way to write things. There are no discussions or a way to create "pods" without going back to some other protocol. I think as a result, most content of Gemini is talking about how Gemini is great and nothing much else.
- smitty1e 5y ago
  So we need to move the transaction management for the connection out of the document and into a conversation. A transaction looks like an email conversation, with server response containing enough metadata to generate a new request to some endpoint that can process it. The next request to the Gemini page will need to have some GUID to locate the conversation and obtain the latest version. This sounds like something that might not be too insane over a VPN, where one owns the whole conversation. Otherwise, it could be fraught with peril.
- cpdean 5y ago
  what you cite as a bug feels like a refreshing feature to me. Looking at how the Lagrange [1] client interprets Gemini shows how rich and enjoyable Gemini can be, and it leaves me optimistic that we could browse it in the future on something like an ereader. The constraints that it imposes makes it so the author is encouraged to write text, not a website. This doesn't have to reproduce the entire suite of features that a modern web application offers. [1] https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/ https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    Aren't e-readers perfectly able to display e.g. MD over HTTP on existing clients instead of gemtext over Gemini on a one off client? Or even gemtext without it being over Gemini or a dedicated client? Similarly how does being incapable of doing something enhance just not doing that something? I get Gemini as a way to form a clique of like minded people who know of it but I don't get Gemini as enabling anything that couldn't or wasn't already being done before.
irrational 5y ago
> While these were initially relatively simple protocols, today, they are enormously complex, to the point that a web browser like Google Chrome has upwards of 5 million lines of code. How many of those lines of code are dedicated to HTTP and HTML vs all the other things browsers do? How many of those lines of code are for CSS, JS, UI, Extensions, security, local storage, etc?
- RodgerTheGreat 5y ago
  I just downloaded a copy of the 1-page version of the latest W3C HTML standard document. This document is 11.65 megabytes and over 80,000 lines long. It is safe to say that HTML alone comprises a daunting level of complexity.
- Matthias247 5y ago
  Gemini mostly seems to be comparable to HTTP, since the markup/formatting part seems to be extremely minimal. For HTTP, if we narrow things down to HTTP/1.1 GET without keepalive (connection-reuse) and for fixed content-length documents only, then I don't think it's vastly more complicated than Gemini. A client are not required to implement to implement more if they don't need it. Browsers implement more (HTTP/[23], other request types, caching, etc) because it improves the user experience - but it wouldn't even be required for showing most web pages.
zaik 5y ago
I don't like the idea of re-inventing Internet Standards. Maybe we can create a culture around creating content using as little web features as possible? I really like minimalism but I also really like interoperability and improving upon existing standards.
- cpdean 5y ago
  The problem I've noticed is you can't get enough people to respect the minimalism. Yes you could implement Gemini in HTTP by having everyone play by the rules, but how many of the links even on HN go to pages with ads, autoplay videos, and "sign up for updates" modal popups? When I browse Gemini with Lagrange ( https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/ https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/ ) if you avoid orange links, then you're guaranteed to have a quiet, text-only experience.
- readams 5y ago
  Sounds like you want AMP...
  - enos_feedler 5y ago
    Ah! I wrote a really long-winded sarcastic joke response only to see you lay it out so explicitly :p
- enos_feedler 5y ago
  Maybe we can build on top of HTML but only allow a restricted subset. Something that will allow pages to load fast and avoid obnoxious advertising. How could we get people to use this subset vs. pulling in other parts of the web we don’t like? We could create a validator for that subset and make certain web properties exclusive to content which passes that validator.
- Hamcha 5y ago
  Cat-V proposed HTTP 0.2 (<http://http02.cat-v.org/ http://http02.cat-v.org/>) as a subset of HTTP and I think the idea is neat. Tho I also personally don't like that HTTP gets blamed for the modern web's shortcoming when I think it's the one part that seems to work really well.
uncomputation 5y ago
I agree with other commenters that Gemini isn’t really needed so much as a culture of web minimalism. One amazing and perhaps revolutionary thing about the web is that everything still works. If we wanted to, we could just go back to table layouts and minimal CSS. It’s not like vendor software/“apps” which no longer support, eg Word 2004.
- krapp 5y ago
  Part of what draws people to Gemini is not just web minimalism in terms of architecture, but minimalism in terms of culture. The web is no longer the exclusive niche of a technically literate elite, but in terms of the "geeks, MOPS and sociopaths" model of subcultural evolution[0], Gemini is meant to be a space where the MOPS and sociopaths never show up to ruin things. Once you understand that, it makes sense. It's the tech version of "my own web with blackjack and hookers and no Homers allowed." Except not with blackjack and hookers, because blackjack would require complexity and interactivity and hookers would mean capitalism and advertising. But definitely no Homers. [0]https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
  - uncomputation 5y ago
    Interesting, thanks for this.
duncan-donuts 5y ago
What I find interesting is the same argument of simplicity and that an Engineer can implement the protocol in an afternoon are the same talking points for the Gopher protocol. I’m mildly interested in Gopher and curious why Gemini over Gopher?
- georgeoliver 5y ago
  In the document at https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi Ctrl-F for "shortcomings" and you'll see "2.2 Which shortcomings of Gopher does Gemini overcome?" where they make their case.
  - oofbey 5y ago
    Sounds like a pretty good case for enhancing gopher instead of starting over.
- jamestomasino 5y ago
  I made a whole video about this. Why gemini over gopher and why gemini over http -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q3GCzG2gvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q3GCzG2gvE
snvzz 5y ago
This proprietary protocol controlled by a single entity offers nothing over Gopher. I don't understand how anyone would give it the light of day.
- shakna 5y ago
  How is Gemini a "proprietary" protocol? The protocol specification is entirely out there in the open. [0] [0] https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/specification.gmi https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/specification.gmi
  - snvzz 5y ago
    I never said closed. I said proprietary. Relative to software licenses, this would be the sort where the source code is there and you can read it, but that is all i.e. not Open Source nor Free Software. It is not specified by a standards board or the like. It is an immutable protocol made by somebody's whim. And it isn't very good. An example: It will never have a header with the size of the payload. The only way you will find out is by downloading the whole payload.
    - shakna 5y ago
      Okay, if we go with proprietary meaning strictly sole developer, and ignore that it has been developed with a community, first by mailing list, and now on Usenet [0]... Gemini was first published roughly in 2019. At about three years old, what protocol has a standards board? It's too young. It took C roughly 17 years to get a standards body. It took Gopher three years to get the first RFC [1]. Was it a proprietary protocol? It was the same age as Gemini currently is. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20211026220037/https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2021/007388.html#%3C704705533.350997.1635162832645@ichabod.co-bxl%3E https://web.archive.org/web/20211026220037/https://lists.orb... [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1436 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1436
      - snvzz 5y ago
        >At about three years old, what protocol has a standards board? It's too young. Your point is moot due to Gemini's immutability. It isn't a protocol carefully designed by a committee. It is just somebody's brain fart. It cannot be fixed and we are giving it too much attention.
knowledge-clay 5y ago
Oh hey, I wrote this. It's pretty out of date, but it reflected the ideas that motivated me to get into Gemini in the first place. Hope it encourages you all to get involved too!
prokopton 5y ago
If Gemini pods could be more easily deployed (think Vercel), I could see it being more used for personal blogs.
enos_feedler 5y ago
How can we solve the chicken and egg problem here? Is there a way we can bootstrap the use of Gemini off of the main web?
dang 5y ago
Related: Gemini is a little gem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30072085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30072085 - Jan 2022 (122 comments) Gemini is Solutionism - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30067400 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30067400 - Jan 2022 (218 comments) Lagrange: A desktop GUI client for Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29291392 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29291392 - Nov 2021 (90 comments) Gemini: The Misaligned Incentives - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688232 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688232 - Sept 2021 (84 comments) What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28600436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28600436 - Sept 2021 (208 comments) Gemini's "uselessness" is its killer feature - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27490769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27490769 - June 2021 (193 comments) Gemini Space - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670464 - April 2021 (27 comments) Agate, a simple Gemini server written in Rust - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26401158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26401158 - March 2021 (34 comments) gemini:// space - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986378 - Feb 2021 (170 comments) The Tragedy of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25807633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25807633 - Jan 2021 (28 comments) Hacker News over Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25225810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25225810 - Nov 2020 (21 comments) A Gopher View of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25005307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25005307 - Nov 2020 (9 comments) A look at the Gemini protocol: a brutally simple alternative to the web - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408 - July 2020 (347 comments) Castor: A browser for the small internet (Gemini, Gopher, Finger) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23161922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23161922 - May 2020 (75 comments) Gemini – A new, collaboratively designed internet protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23042424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23042424 - May 2020 (62 comments)
charcircuit 5y ago
>Writing Gemini text takes maybe five minutes to learn So does learning HTML if you only want Gemini level formatting. There is also nothing preventing you from just serving plain text files over HTTP either.
jordemort 5y ago
I understand and empathize with the desire to restore the Internet as it previously existed as a constellation of weird neighborhoods and niche hangouts. Gemini feels like a technological solution to a social/cultural problem though. I used Gopher and Veronica back in their heyday. The Internet was a fantastically cool novelty back in the days of bag phones and exorbitantly expensive long-distance calling, and I totally get wanting to recapture that feeling. I think it's a lost cause, though. Large parts of the world suddenly becoming easily and mostly instantly connected was a sort of species-level watershed moment. Those of us that were around for those early years were lucky to get to see it, but I don't think it can ever really be recreated, except as some sort of LARP.
gandalfff 5y ago
Gemini has already won. Gemini users have carved out a space for a thriving community, which doesn't need to scale to be valuable and fun.
JohnTHaller 5y ago
I decided to package up a fully portable version (including Downloads path and registry keys) for Windows: https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/lagrange-portable https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/lagrange-portable

67 points by modinfo 5y ago

What does this blog article really do that the official page doesn't?

I understand the impulse to simplify things, but there’s an important question that needs to be addressed before doing so. It is the following: why won’t this new, simple protocol accumulate the same complexity as it’s predecessor over time?

cartesius13 5y ago
The Gemini guys actually think about this a lot so they're working to make the protocol the least extensible as possible or not extensible at all. They plan to freeze the spec forever after 1.0
- Gigachad 5y ago
  That doesn't stop anything. There is nothing stopping me from writing up a spec that says "Put an annotation like this in your gemini file and with tools supporting this spec addition, you will see an image embedded". For non compliant browsers you will just see plain text and for new extended browsers you will see an inline image.
  - Pink2DS 5y ago
    I agree that this is possible and that the Gemini project might be futile because of this.
- oofbey 5y ago
  Sounds like they want to guarantee this never actually catches on. Pretty sure they will succeed.
Gigachad 5y ago
Because no one actually uses Gemini other than to write smug posts about how text only is the best.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tenebrisalietum 5y ago
One thing: a version number is explicitly not supported by the protocol or standard. There is only one Gemini version now and forever.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  There is realistically no version numbers on the modern web. Its a living standard where new features come in whenever. The underlying communications spec is versioned but this has little to do with possible features and only needs to be updated for performance and security.
  - oofbey 5y ago
    That's true for HTML, but not HTTP. HTML is organic - here's your document, good luck making it work. HTTP is clearly versioned with significantly different changing features at each revision.
    - Gigachad 5y ago
      You don't need to touch HTTP to extend features though. Most of what people care about is the HTML/CSS/JS web api which can extend at any time. No user or developer was ever excited about a new version of HTTP which really only helps performance.

SamWhited 5y ago

I like some of the ideas behind Gemini, but I'll never get onboard with something made by an individual and not actually standardized by a reputable standards body. BDFL type software will only end up not being accessible to some people and not thinking about concerns that aren't important to the one or two people controlling it (even if a larger open source community develops around it; it's still largely controlled by the person who set the initial direction and did most of the work initially with no collaboration or cooperation from others).

RodgerTheGreat 5y ago
Could you provide an example of a standards body along the lines of what you would accept which is not primarily comprised of and funded by commercial interests?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- SamWhited 5y ago
  This is a bit of a straw man; many (most?) standards bodies aren't driven by commercial interest. I agree that there are some that are (3gp, probably wc3 though I'm not super familiar with them I just hear people complain about that as a problem all the time), but many if not most are almost entirely volunteer or have a more mixed way of doing things (ie. the within the IETF plenty of companies put their people in the bigger working groups, but also many volunteers who aren't affiliated with a company driving the work are also a part of them or completely control them). Others take an absolutely-no-company approach like the XSF who only allows three people who work for the same company to join and requires all members to be acting of their own accord and not on behalf of a company. Sure, some standards bodies have a problem with commercial interests, but it's not the big problem your question implies.
enos_feedler 5y ago
Getting to the point of being stamped by a reputable standards body is something that comes after experimenting in public for a while in a non standard way

JasonFruit 5y ago

I've been enjoying Gemini using Lagrange on desktop and Deedum on mobile. It's reminiscent of the early web: the kind of people who put up Gemini capsules are not talking about the kind of stuff you see on every popular website, so you get detailed idiosyncratic takes on history, technology, politics, religion, crafts — all manner of things. For example, I'm ardently opposed to a particular political point of view, and using Gemini I've found a lot of interesting, introspective writing by people who adhere to it that has given me a new, if not more positive, perspective that I could not have gained on the more public web. It's worth checking out.

omginternets 5y ago
Can you suggest any links? I’d be curious to read some of the political discussions you mentioned.
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  Just go to gemini://geminispace.info/ and start searching. You'll find more interesting things on your own.
divbzero 5y ago
I find it interesting and admirable when people can strongly disagree but still have some empathy for opposing views. Any chance you could share the subject matter of the viewpoints you reference? Maybe even describing the points of view without stating which view you’re ardently against?
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  I'm a conservative libertarian, reading what communists have to say for themselves.
  - Pink2DS 5y ago
    Thank you for that♥

shp0ngle 5y ago

Main problem of Gemini is that it's read-only, by design. The author of the protocol didn't want to add forms etc, as that adds complexity; but as a result, there is no way to write things. There are no discussions or a way to create "pods" without going back to some other protocol. I think as a result, most content of Gemini is talking about how Gemini is great and nothing much else.

smitty1e 5y ago
So we need to move the transaction management for the connection out of the document and into a conversation. A transaction looks like an email conversation, with server response containing enough metadata to generate a new request to some endpoint that can process it. The next request to the Gemini page will need to have some GUID to locate the conversation and obtain the latest version. This sounds like something that might not be too insane over a VPN, where one owns the whole conversation. Otherwise, it could be fraught with peril.
cpdean 5y ago
what you cite as a bug feels like a refreshing feature to me. Looking at how the Lagrange [1] client interprets Gemini shows how rich and enjoyable Gemini can be, and it leaves me optimistic that we could browse it in the future on something like an ereader. The constraints that it imposes makes it so the author is encouraged to write text, not a website. This doesn't have to reproduce the entire suite of features that a modern web application offers. [1] https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/ https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/
- zamadatix 5y ago
  Aren't e-readers perfectly able to display e.g. MD over HTTP on existing clients instead of gemtext over Gemini on a one off client? Or even gemtext without it being over Gemini or a dedicated client? Similarly how does being incapable of doing something enhance just not doing that something? I get Gemini as a way to form a clique of like minded people who know of it but I don't get Gemini as enabling anything that couldn't or wasn't already being done before.

irrational 5y ago

> While these were initially relatively simple protocols, today, they are enormously complex, to the point that a web browser like Google Chrome has upwards of 5 million lines of code. How many of those lines of code are dedicated to HTTP and HTML vs all the other things browsers do? How many of those lines of code are for CSS, JS, UI, Extensions, security, local storage, etc?

RodgerTheGreat 5y ago
I just downloaded a copy of the 1-page version of the latest W3C HTML standard document. This document is 11.65 megabytes and over 80,000 lines long. It is safe to say that HTML alone comprises a daunting level of complexity.
Matthias247 5y ago
Gemini mostly seems to be comparable to HTTP, since the markup/formatting part seems to be extremely minimal. For HTTP, if we narrow things down to HTTP/1.1 GET without keepalive (connection-reuse) and for fixed content-length documents only, then I don't think it's vastly more complicated than Gemini. A client are not required to implement to implement more if they don't need it. Browsers implement more (HTTP/[23], other request types, caching, etc) because it improves the user experience - but it wouldn't even be required for showing most web pages.

zaik 5y ago

I don't like the idea of re-inventing Internet Standards. Maybe we can create a culture around creating content using as little web features as possible? I really like minimalism but I also really like interoperability and improving upon existing standards.

cpdean 5y ago
The problem I've noticed is you can't get enough people to respect the minimalism. Yes you could implement Gemini in HTTP by having everyone play by the rules, but how many of the links even on HN go to pages with ads, autoplay videos, and "sign up for updates" modal popups? When I browse Gemini with Lagrange ( https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/ https://gmi.skyjake.fi/lagrange/ ) if you avoid orange links, then you're guaranteed to have a quiet, text-only experience.
readams 5y ago
Sounds like you want AMP...
- enos_feedler 5y ago
  Ah! I wrote a really long-winded sarcastic joke response only to see you lay it out so explicitly :p
enos_feedler 5y ago
Maybe we can build on top of HTML but only allow a restricted subset. Something that will allow pages to load fast and avoid obnoxious advertising. How could we get people to use this subset vs. pulling in other parts of the web we don’t like? We could create a validator for that subset and make certain web properties exclusive to content which passes that validator.
Hamcha 5y ago
Cat-V proposed HTTP 0.2 (<http://http02.cat-v.org/ http://http02.cat-v.org/>) as a subset of HTTP and I think the idea is neat. Tho I also personally don't like that HTTP gets blamed for the modern web's shortcoming when I think it's the one part that seems to work really well.

uncomputation 5y ago

I agree with other commenters that Gemini isn’t really needed so much as a culture of web minimalism. One amazing and perhaps revolutionary thing about the web is that everything still works. If we wanted to, we could just go back to table layouts and minimal CSS. It’s not like vendor software/“apps” which no longer support, eg Word 2004.

krapp 5y ago
Part of what draws people to Gemini is not just web minimalism in terms of architecture, but minimalism in terms of culture. The web is no longer the exclusive niche of a technically literate elite, but in terms of the "geeks, MOPS and sociopaths" model of subcultural evolution[0], Gemini is meant to be a space where the MOPS and sociopaths never show up to ruin things. Once you understand that, it makes sense. It's the tech version of "my own web with blackjack and hookers and no Homers allowed." Except not with blackjack and hookers, because blackjack would require complexity and interactivity and hookers would mean capitalism and advertising. But definitely no Homers. [0]https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths
- uncomputation 5y ago
  Interesting, thanks for this.

duncan-donuts 5y ago

What I find interesting is the same argument of simplicity and that an Engineer can implement the protocol in an afternoon are the same talking points for the Gopher protocol. I’m mildly interested in Gopher and curious why Gemini over Gopher?

georgeoliver 5y ago
In the document at https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi Ctrl-F for "shortcomings" and you'll see "2.2 Which shortcomings of Gopher does Gemini overcome?" where they make their case.
- oofbey 5y ago
  Sounds like a pretty good case for enhancing gopher instead of starting over.
jamestomasino 5y ago
I made a whole video about this. Why gemini over gopher and why gemini over http -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q3GCzG2gvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q3GCzG2gvE

snvzz 5y ago

This proprietary protocol controlled by a single entity offers nothing over Gopher. I don't understand how anyone would give it the light of day.

shakna 5y ago
How is Gemini a "proprietary" protocol? The protocol specification is entirely out there in the open. [0] [0] https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/specification.gmi https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/specification.gmi
- snvzz 5y ago
  I never said closed. I said proprietary. Relative to software licenses, this would be the sort where the source code is there and you can read it, but that is all i.e. not Open Source nor Free Software. It is not specified by a standards board or the like. It is an immutable protocol made by somebody's whim. And it isn't very good. An example: It will never have a header with the size of the payload. The only way you will find out is by downloading the whole payload.
  - shakna 5y ago
    Okay, if we go with proprietary meaning strictly sole developer, and ignore that it has been developed with a community, first by mailing list, and now on Usenet [0]... Gemini was first published roughly in 2019. At about three years old, what protocol has a standards board? It's too young. It took C roughly 17 years to get a standards body. It took Gopher three years to get the first RFC [1]. Was it a proprietary protocol? It was the same age as Gemini currently is. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20211026220037/https://lists.orbitalfox.eu/archives/gemini/2021/007388.html#%3C704705533.350997.1635162832645@ichabod.co-bxl%3E https://web.archive.org/web/20211026220037/https://lists.orb... [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1436 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1436
    - snvzz 5y ago
      >At about three years old, what protocol has a standards board? It's too young. Your point is moot due to Gemini's immutability. It isn't a protocol carefully designed by a committee. It is just somebody's brain fart. It cannot be fixed and we are giving it too much attention.

knowledge-clay 5y ago

Oh hey, I wrote this. It's pretty out of date, but it reflected the ideas that motivated me to get into Gemini in the first place. Hope it encourages you all to get involved too!

prokopton 5y ago

If Gemini pods could be more easily deployed (think Vercel), I could see it being more used for personal blogs.

enos_feedler 5y ago

How can we solve the chicken and egg problem here? Is there a way we can bootstrap the use of Gemini off of the main web?

dang 5y ago

Related: Gemini is a little gem - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30072085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30072085 - Jan 2022 (122 comments) Gemini is Solutionism - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30067400 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30067400 - Jan 2022 (218 comments) Lagrange: A desktop GUI client for Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29291392 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29291392 - Nov 2021 (90 comments) Gemini: The Misaligned Incentives - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688232 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688232 - Sept 2021 (84 comments) What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28600436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28600436 - Sept 2021 (208 comments) Gemini's "uselessness" is its killer feature - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27490769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27490769 - June 2021 (193 comments) Gemini Space - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26670464 - April 2021 (27 comments) Agate, a simple Gemini server written in Rust - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26401158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26401158 - March 2021 (34 comments) gemini:// space - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25986378 - Feb 2021 (170 comments) The Tragedy of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25807633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25807633 - Jan 2021 (28 comments) Hacker News over Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25225810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25225810 - Nov 2020 (21 comments) A Gopher View of Gemini - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25005307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25005307 - Nov 2020 (9 comments) A look at the Gemini protocol: a brutally simple alternative to the web - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730408 - July 2020 (347 comments) Castor: A browser for the small internet (Gemini, Gopher, Finger) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23161922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23161922 - May 2020 (75 comments) Gemini – A new, collaboratively designed internet protocol - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23042424 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23042424 - May 2020 (62 comments)

charcircuit 5y ago

>Writing Gemini text takes maybe five minutes to learn So does learning HTML if you only want Gemini level formatting. There is also nothing preventing you from just serving plain text files over HTTP either.

jordemort 5y ago

I understand and empathize with the desire to restore the Internet as it previously existed as a constellation of weird neighborhoods and niche hangouts. Gemini feels like a technological solution to a social/cultural problem though. I used Gopher and Veronica back in their heyday. The Internet was a fantastically cool novelty back in the days of bag phones and exorbitantly expensive long-distance calling, and I totally get wanting to recapture that feeling. I think it's a lost cause, though. Large parts of the world suddenly becoming easily and mostly instantly connected was a sort of species-level watershed moment. Those of us that were around for those early years were lucky to get to see it, but I don't think it can ever really be recreated, except as some sort of LARP.

gandalfff 5y ago

Gemini has already won. Gemini users have carved out a space for a thriving community, which doesn't need to scale to be valuable and fun.

JohnTHaller 5y ago

I decided to package up a fully portable version (including Downloads path and registry keys) for Windows: https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/lagrange-portable https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/lagrange-portable