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This is all still extremely irrelevant to the question of if capitalism is in some way disconnected from, or apart from, racist systems. "Who started it" is jus

This is all still extremely irrelevant to the question of if capitalism is in some way disconnected from, or apart from, racist systems. "Who started it" is just completely academic and not at all interesting. Also, colonialism and imperialism are not the same thing. I get the feeling you read "imperialism" in place of "colonialism" in my post, but I did not even mention imperialism.

simonh 5y ago
You're quite right on your point about the distinction between imperialism and colonialism. I meant colonialism. Something can exist alongside or in tandem with a system without being identical to or necessarily dependent on it. A great example is capitalism in China. Politically it is communist, yet it also has a huge capitalist economic sector. The capitalist economic system in China has raised hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, a feat no other economic system has even approached. Japan is capitalist, is it also colonialist or based on racist exploitation? What about Sweden, or Germany, or South Korea? There are many capitalist countries that never had any significant empires or colonies, and certainly reaped extremely few economic benefits from them if any, that have done extremely well. What made them wealthy was industrialisation and capitalist economics. Even the USA had barely any colonial presence, and any that it has had made almost no impact on it's economy which throughout it's history has been almost entirely driven by internal demand, and most of it's trade was with developed countries, not colonies. Yes it had mass slavery, but in fact ending slavery was hugely economically beneficial by allowing former slaves to emigrate north and take up jobs in the industrial belt. Look, I'm not in any way denying that colonialist abuses were appalling, that we benefited from them, that there are lingering historical injustices that need to be faced up to. All of that is true. It's just got nothing to do with capitalist economics, which if anything actively contributed to the downfall of that system.
- stormbrew 5y ago
  > Japan is capitalist, is it also colonialist or based on racist exploitation? What about Sweden, or Germany, or South Korea? Yes to all of these, which have at some point in history had colonial holdings, except perhaps South Korea which has largely been a victim of colonial (and imperial) systems, even if they currently thrive under American protection. As for the US, it is itself a colony, and the exploitation of people and resources on the continent built its wealth. That it managed to wrest away control of itself after much of the genocide undertaken to build it up was already done doesn't change that it was built on extraction of resources from the 'new' world to the 'old'. Some of them moved there and didn't want to send their money home anymore, but like... there were people on the island of Manhattan before it became the center of the finance world, and they're all but erased from history now. And all of these countries continue to benefit from wealth taken from the global south today. The tools of coercion that keep this system going have changed, but they're still in effect. Capitalism was built on wealth extracted through colonialism. There's no getting around that.

simonh 5y ago

You're quite right on your point about the distinction between imperialism and colonialism. I meant colonialism. Something can exist alongside or in tandem with a system without being identical to or necessarily dependent on it. A great example is capitalism in China. Politically it is communist, yet it also has a huge capitalist economic sector. The capitalist economic system in China has raised hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, a feat no other economic system has even approached. Japan is capitalist, is it also colonialist or based on racist exploitation? What about Sweden, or Germany, or South Korea? There are many capitalist countries that never had any significant empires or colonies, and certainly reaped extremely few economic benefits from them if any, that have done extremely well. What made them wealthy was industrialisation and capitalist economics. Even the USA had barely any colonial presence, and any that it has had made almost no impact on it's economy which throughout it's history has been almost entirely driven by internal demand, and most of it's trade was with developed countries, not colonies. Yes it had mass slavery, but in fact ending slavery was hugely economically beneficial by allowing former slaves to emigrate north and take up jobs in the industrial belt. Look, I'm not in any way denying that colonialist abuses were appalling, that we benefited from them, that there are lingering historical injustices that need to be faced up to. All of that is true. It's just got nothing to do with capitalist economics, which if anything actively contributed to the downfall of that system.

stormbrew 5y ago
> Japan is capitalist, is it also colonialist or based on racist exploitation? What about Sweden, or Germany, or South Korea? Yes to all of these, which have at some point in history had colonial holdings, except perhaps South Korea which has largely been a victim of colonial (and imperial) systems, even if they currently thrive under American protection. As for the US, it is itself a colony, and the exploitation of people and resources on the continent built its wealth. That it managed to wrest away control of itself after much of the genocide undertaken to build it up was already done doesn't change that it was built on extraction of resources from the 'new' world to the 'old'. Some of them moved there and didn't want to send their money home anymore, but like... there were people on the island of Manhattan before it became the center of the finance world, and they're all but erased from history now. And all of these countries continue to benefit from wealth taken from the global south today. The tools of coercion that keep this system going have changed, but they're still in effect. Capitalism was built on wealth extracted through colonialism. There's no getting around that.