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> Nothing similar is happening in Donbas. I guess the 3000 dead civilians just bombed themselves.

by ailef 5y ago

myko 5y ago
The point is the Ukrainian government isn't the cause - the cause there is Putin as well, as he instigated the rebellion and is backing it. There is no movement for Donbas to join Russia beyond the one Russia itself created. And the reason the area has many folks who identify with Russia is due to mass killing of Ukrainians in the area and sending Russian families to take their land: https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor Keep in mind, the 3000 dead you claim are, best as we can tell, fabricated by Putin. Please look into it further before repeating it. Here's a good rundown of Donbas: https://theconversation.com/putins-claims-that-ukraine-is-committing-genocide-are-baseless-but-not-unprecedented-177511 https://theconversation.com/putins-claims-that-ukraine-is-co...
- ailef 5y ago
  > Keep in mind, the 3000 dead you claim are, best as we can tell, fabricated by Putin. It's impossible to have a rational conversation about this topic when data about civilian casualties provided by the UN[1] is framed as fabricated by Putin without providing even the smallest piece of evidence. Also, the second article you linked to is arguing about the semantics of the word "genocide". If you want we can argue semantics, but even that seems quite difficult when since 2014 the neo-Nazi Azov battalion has been officially integrated into the Ukranian army. Of course, the article conveniently skips mentioning both the word "Azov" and "nazi". [1] https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2030%20September%202021%20%28rev%208%20Oct%202021%29%20EN.pdf https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Conflict-...
  - myko 5y ago
    The document you linked proves my point. Included in the number of civilian casualties are those killed by Russia shooting down a civilian airliner. Putin's fabricated claim is that Ukraine is responsible for these deaths - when in fact, he is, since he started the fighting - not Ukraine. Your earlier comment was "I guess the 3000 dead civilians just bombed themselves" which implied Ukraine killed them. It isn't semantics to suggest terms should be used correctly. People dying because Putin's ruthless ambition is not the same as genocide. Attempting to eradicate a people is. That is not something Ukraine was doing in Donbas - they were protecting their own territory, and yes civilians die in combat. Again I point out, combat started by Russia. Bringing this back to the earlier topic, this is different from Kosovo because Russia (Putin) are the ones causing the conflict and getting people killed. There was no ethnic cleansing that Putin stopped with his invasions into Ukraine.
    - ailef 5y ago
      There have been massive pro-Russia protests in the eastern part of Ukraine after the 2014 Maidan revolution, which often have been brutally suppressed by Ukrainian authorities. It's a fact that most people in that area feels closer to Russia than Europe. You are disregarding their right to self determination just because they are favorable and, of course, backed militarily and financially, by Russian. Seeing as the US has funded opposition movements for years, sent military aid and trained neo-Nazi militias which took on a promiment role during the Maidan revolution, I don't see how it can be a problem that Russia interevenes to support ethnic-Russians in the region. This kind of double standard is mind boggling.
      - myko 5y ago
        > You are disregarding their right to self determination just because they are favorable and No, in those regions the will to stay Ukraine outnumbers the will to become a Russian vassal or part of Russia: https://www.iri.org/resources/ukraine-poll-majority-want-donbas-to-remain-in-ukraine/ https://www.iri.org/resources/ukraine-poll-majority-want-don... Keep in mind, the only reason there are large Russian populations there are due to the USSR killing ethnic Ukrainians purposefully and sending Russians there to take their homes. Read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor Beyond that, even if you take Putin's propaganda that eastern Ukraine wants to be part of Russia you must reconcile his statement that Lenin made a mistake allowing Ukraine to exist and the fact that he has invaded all of Ukraine and is trying to decapitate the government. He even has kill lists of Ukrainians to exterminate: https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082096026/russia-kill-list-ukraine https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082096026/russia-kill-list-u...
        ailef 5y ago
        > No, in those regions the will to stay Ukraine outnumbers the will to become a Russian vassal or part of Russia: From the IRI report: > The sample consisted of 2,400 permanent residents of Ukraine aged 18 and older and eligible to vote, and is representative of the general population by gender, age, region and size of settlement. An additional 1,378 respondents were also surveyed in the Ukrainian-controlled territories of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. So basically they only surveyed people from Ukraininan controlled areas and the result is they want to stay with Ukraine, what a surprise. I understand the argument about the Holodomor, but the fact is that at the moment the majority of the population in those area are pro-Russian. If you look at history then, Crimea was historically Russian and only given to Ukraine in 1954 as part of a deal. According to your reasoning you must've been favorable to its annexation then, otherwise this is another example of applying double standards only when convenient.

> Nothing similar is happening in Donbas. I guess the 3000 dead civilians just bombed themselves.

by ailef 5y ago

> Nothing similar is happening in Donbas. I guess the 3000 dead civilians just bombed themselves.

myko 5y ago

The point is the Ukrainian government isn't the cause - the cause there is Putin as well, as he instigated the rebellion and is backing it. There is no movement for Donbas to join Russia beyond the one Russia itself created. And the reason the area has many folks who identify with Russia is due to mass killing of Ukrainians in the area and sending Russian families to take their land: https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor Keep in mind, the 3000 dead you claim are, best as we can tell, fabricated by Putin. Please look into it further before repeating it. Here's a good rundown of Donbas: https://theconversation.com/putins-claims-that-ukraine-is-committing-genocide-are-baseless-but-not-unprecedented-177511 https://theconversation.com/putins-claims-that-ukraine-is-co...

ailef 5y ago
> Keep in mind, the 3000 dead you claim are, best as we can tell, fabricated by Putin. It's impossible to have a rational conversation about this topic when data about civilian casualties provided by the UN[1] is framed as fabricated by Putin without providing even the smallest piece of evidence. Also, the second article you linked to is arguing about the semantics of the word "genocide". If you want we can argue semantics, but even that seems quite difficult when since 2014 the neo-Nazi Azov battalion has been officially integrated into the Ukranian army. Of course, the article conveniently skips mentioning both the word "Azov" and "nazi". [1] https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2030%20September%202021%20%28rev%208%20Oct%202021%29%20EN.pdf https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-10/Conflict-...
- myko 5y ago
  The document you linked proves my point. Included in the number of civilian casualties are those killed by Russia shooting down a civilian airliner. Putin's fabricated claim is that Ukraine is responsible for these deaths - when in fact, he is, since he started the fighting - not Ukraine. Your earlier comment was "I guess the 3000 dead civilians just bombed themselves" which implied Ukraine killed them. It isn't semantics to suggest terms should be used correctly. People dying because Putin's ruthless ambition is not the same as genocide. Attempting to eradicate a people is. That is not something Ukraine was doing in Donbas - they were protecting their own territory, and yes civilians die in combat. Again I point out, combat started by Russia. Bringing this back to the earlier topic, this is different from Kosovo because Russia (Putin) are the ones causing the conflict and getting people killed. There was no ethnic cleansing that Putin stopped with his invasions into Ukraine.
  - ailef 5y ago
    There have been massive pro-Russia protests in the eastern part of Ukraine after the 2014 Maidan revolution, which often have been brutally suppressed by Ukrainian authorities. It's a fact that most people in that area feels closer to Russia than Europe. You are disregarding their right to self determination just because they are favorable and, of course, backed militarily and financially, by Russian. Seeing as the US has funded opposition movements for years, sent military aid and trained neo-Nazi militias which took on a promiment role during the Maidan revolution, I don't see how it can be a problem that Russia interevenes to support ethnic-Russians in the region. This kind of double standard is mind boggling.
    - myko 5y ago
      > You are disregarding their right to self determination just because they are favorable and No, in those regions the will to stay Ukraine outnumbers the will to become a Russian vassal or part of Russia: https://www.iri.org/resources/ukraine-poll-majority-want-donbas-to-remain-in-ukraine/ https://www.iri.org/resources/ukraine-poll-majority-want-don... Keep in mind, the only reason there are large Russian populations there are due to the USSR killing ethnic Ukrainians purposefully and sending Russians there to take their homes. Read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor Beyond that, even if you take Putin's propaganda that eastern Ukraine wants to be part of Russia you must reconcile his statement that Lenin made a mistake allowing Ukraine to exist and the fact that he has invaded all of Ukraine and is trying to decapitate the government. He even has kill lists of Ukrainians to exterminate: https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082096026/russia-kill-list-ukraine https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082096026/russia-kill-list-u...
      - ailef 5y ago
        > No, in those regions the will to stay Ukraine outnumbers the will to become a Russian vassal or part of Russia: From the IRI report: > The sample consisted of 2,400 permanent residents of Ukraine aged 18 and older and eligible to vote, and is representative of the general population by gender, age, region and size of settlement. An additional 1,378 respondents were also surveyed in the Ukrainian-controlled territories of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts. So basically they only surveyed people from Ukraininan controlled areas and the result is they want to stay with Ukraine, what a surprise. I understand the argument about the Holodomor, but the fact is that at the moment the majority of the population in those area are pro-Russian. If you look at history then, Crimea was historically Russian and only given to Ukraine in 1954 as part of a deal. According to your reasoning you must've been favorable to its annexation then, otherwise this is another example of applying double standards only when convenient.