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You linked to people who disagree, or have a different take on the situation. I'm not sure what you think that means. I have simply pointed out that the revolu

by yucky 5y ago

You linked to people who disagree, or have a different take on the situation. I'm not sure what you think that means. I have simply pointed out that the revolution/coup of 2014 that installed the current Ukrainian government was A)Unconstitutional and B)Supported by the US, which is obviously the main adversary to Russia. I also pointed out that the idea of pushing Ukraine and/or Georgia towards NATO has been known for the last 25 years to be a guaranteed precursor to war with Russia. These facts aren't in dispute, so there is nothing to call me out on. Now, you can have the opinion that the coup was a good thing for the Ukrainian people and that it's ok to install a pro-US government in Ukraine or that they should be in NATO regardless of how that concerns Russia. Those are opinions and can be debated. But you can't dismiss facts. And the above are facts.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> These facts aren't in dispute, so there is nothing to call me out on Yes, very nice. however as stated before https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30665507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30665507 Your argument is at best semantic; and entirely misleading, in a propagandistic way. I call you out on that, and I am not the first > Supported by the US Citation needed. You called it "CIA-backed" earlier, which is a worse smear. You can deny the Ukrainian people agency over their own fate then, as a precursor to denying it to them now. The facts on the ground say otherwise. Ukraine is not behaving as if they have an "illegitimate regime". Implying otherwise - and doing so repeatedly - is behaviour that shows that you have an agenda. > I also pointed out that the idea of pushing Ukraine and/or Georgia towards NATO has been known for the last 25 years to be a guaranteed precursor to war with Russia. "look what you made me do" is again, the logic of an abuser.
- yucky 5y ago
  >Citation needed. You called it "CIA-backed" earlier, which is a worse smear. This tells me you didn't read the citations I provided.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    Your citations provided upthread say nothing of the sort. This is pretty misleading stuff. Regarding "ok to install a pro-US government in Ukraine" is a complete mischaracterisation; the question is whether it's OK for a nation to determine their own fate or not. Regardless of which power they choose to be "pro". I'm of the opinion that it is vital; you're clearly against that self-determination, calling it a "coup", repeatedly, for tendentious reasons.
    - yucky 5y ago
      >"ok to install a pro-US government in Ukraine" is a complete mischaracterisation So you didn't listen to the leaked phone call with Victoria Nuland handpicking who they wanted to take power? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
      - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        Seems like this took place after the transfer of power. You can't cause a transfer of power after it happens. But I don't think you're that stupid,. you're just trying to fool people with misleading links. Government behaving badly? isn't the answer - according to you - to wait until the next election and change leaders (1)? "That is how democracy works." Oh wait, Ukraine did that in 2019 when they elected Zelensky by a wide margin (2). Job done. right? Problem solved, no need to bring it up again. All this irrelevant frothing about CIA, US is designed to misdirect away from Ukraine's self-determination. Who they align with or not is their choice. In 2014, 2019 or any other year. 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30632670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30632670 2) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48007487 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48007487
        yucky 5y ago
        >Seems like this took place after the transfer of power. The "Revolution of Dignity" was February 18-23rd 2014. This BBC article[1] featuring the leaked transcript is from February 7th 2014, which is 2 weeks earlier. So no, that is 100% incorrect. Does that change your view? [1]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

by yucky 5y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> These facts aren't in dispute, so there is nothing to call me out on Yes, very nice. however as stated before https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30665507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30665507 Your argument is at best semantic; and entirely misleading, in a propagandistic way. I call you out on that, and I am not the first > Supported by the US Citation needed. You called it "CIA-backed" earlier, which is a worse smear. You can deny the Ukrainian people agency over their own fate then, as a precursor to denying it to them now. The facts on the ground say otherwise. Ukraine is not behaving as if they have an "illegitimate regime". Implying otherwise - and doing so repeatedly - is behaviour that shows that you have an agenda. > I also pointed out that the idea of pushing Ukraine and/or Georgia towards NATO has been known for the last 25 years to be a guaranteed precursor to war with Russia. "look what you made me do" is again, the logic of an abuser.

yucky 5y ago
>Citation needed. You called it "CIA-backed" earlier, which is a worse smear. This tells me you didn't read the citations I provided.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  Your citations provided upthread say nothing of the sort. This is pretty misleading stuff. Regarding "ok to install a pro-US government in Ukraine" is a complete mischaracterisation; the question is whether it's OK for a nation to determine their own fate or not. Regardless of which power they choose to be "pro". I'm of the opinion that it is vital; you're clearly against that self-determination, calling it a "coup", repeatedly, for tendentious reasons.
  - yucky 5y ago
    >"ok to install a pro-US government in Ukraine" is a complete mischaracterisation So you didn't listen to the leaked phone call with Victoria Nuland handpicking who they wanted to take power? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      Seems like this took place after the transfer of power. You can't cause a transfer of power after it happens. But I don't think you're that stupid,. you're just trying to fool people with misleading links. Government behaving badly? isn't the answer - according to you - to wait until the next election and change leaders (1)? "That is how democracy works." Oh wait, Ukraine did that in 2019 when they elected Zelensky by a wide margin (2). Job done. right? Problem solved, no need to bring it up again. All this irrelevant frothing about CIA, US is designed to misdirect away from Ukraine's self-determination. Who they align with or not is their choice. In 2014, 2019 or any other year. 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30632670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30632670 2) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48007487 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48007487
      - yucky 5y ago
        >Seems like this took place after the transfer of power. The "Revolution of Dignity" was February 18-23rd 2014. This BBC article[1] featuring the leaked transcript is from February 7th 2014, which is 2 weeks earlier. So no, that is 100% incorrect. Does that change your view? [1]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957