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I could see a good argument for making an ivy league school with an enrollment of 100k, simply to break the ivy league elitist bullshit. This complaint is abou

I could see a good argument for making an ivy league school with an enrollment of 100k, simply to break the ivy league elitist bullshit. This complaint is about reaching one tenth the size of a good UC. (Berkeley: 41k, Davis: 35k, UCLA: 45k) Berkeley's student faculty ratio is 19:1, while the article is complaining about fluctuations between 7.1:1 and 7.5:1. Yes, larger facilities are needed to handle growth to UC size, but capping student population at 19th century levels even as population grows is its own kind of pathology.

R0b0t1 5y ago
Showing up in person is its own kind of pathology. If they offer masters online, why not undergrad? There's a lot of threads here with amazingly tone deaf people who are just "go to school" or "get a masters" when the gating factor is magicing up 4 years of potentially repeat credits to get your undergrad after already being a working professional.
- gumby 5y ago
  That kind of masters is just credentialism, like the corporate certs people pay for. They are a good moneymaker for the universities. There are other kinds of masters, like one attached to an extended bachelor’s (more classes, a project and/or do-op) or as a consolation prize for dropping out of a PhD program. These are more academic.
Animats 5y ago
even as population grows What population growth? The US college age population is flat, and the US grade school age population is dropping. US population growth is mostly old people living longer.[1] New York City's population is declining. Not the whole metro area, just the city. [1] https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/population-and-demographics/population-data/population/ https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/population-a...
- mjmahone17 5y ago
  New York City grew by 700,000 people between 2010 and 2020, while the metro area grew by 1.15 million. I’m not sure where you’re getting the declining figures from?
- sdenton4 5y ago
  Edit: I misread the graph, as the reply points out. Looking at the linked graphs, looks like you're right over the last five-ish years and quite wrong over the last twenty years: the number of 15-20 year olds grew from 20M to 40M since 2000, and has only been flat for a few years.
  - dylan_b 5y ago
    I think you may have accidentally clicked on the timeseries for 55 to 64 year olds, which is understandable because the colors for the two are really close. 55 to 64 year olds have increased dramatically over the past 20 years, due to baby boomers getting older. Like the parent comment said, though, the numbers of 15-24 year olds have been more or less flat over the last 40 years.
    - sdenton4 5y ago
      I stand corrected!
abeppu 5y ago
Yes _and_ ... the same issues also apply to the UCs. E.g. there's been a lot of recent discussion about Berkeley increasing the size of its incoming class by a third. But my understanding is there was never a plan to increase faculty by the same proportion, or a plan to create 1/3 more classrooms. After having pushed so hard to bring instruction back to campus, Berkeley is asking a significant share of incoming freshman to do only online classes, which both increases the burden on faculty and removes some opportunities from those students. In 4 years will we see the graduation rate drop because class registration became more competitive and competent students cannot meet all their requirements? Will the distribution of majors change towards those that are most compatible with a hybrid, "I'm not sure whether I'll get a seat in the room" instruction?
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > the same issues also apply to the UCs. E.g. there's been a lot of recent discussion about Berkeley increasing the size of its incoming class by a third. Well, no, the reason there's been a lot of recent discussion about Berkeley's class size is that a local activist group got a judge to say it was illegal for Berkeley to increase admissions.
  - sdenton4 5y ago
    And to be really clear, activist == nimbys, not actual activists.
    - Dracophoenix 5y ago
      Why are NIMBYs not activists? I've always found it odd that the same people whose property is taxed are told they shouldn't have a say in what's built with the money and are wrong for protesting such projects.
  - abeppu 5y ago
    The fact that there are local and state political forces involved making arguments you may disagree with does not mean these issues (student:faculty ratios, classroom space, etc) don't apply.
giantg2 5y ago
"I could see a good argument for making an ivy league school with an enrollment of 100k, simply to break the ivy league elitist bullshit." The elitists would simply view that larger school as inferior.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I think they'd not be entirely incorrect in that view. No school will grow 7x-20x and maintain the same standards in admissions, in education, or in alumni achievement per-capita. They'd instantly become the Ivy League Safety School, which would deter many of the strongest future applicants from applying and deter many of their strong admits from choosing that school if they had multiple Ivy admittances.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Is the quality of education really better? My understanding is it's all just selection or an IQ test - strongest apply, strongest get in, places hire them based on the prestige of the name.
    - wallscratch 5y ago
      As someone who went to a state school for undergrad and an ivy for phd (and took some undergrad cs classes there), and I can say that yes, the undergraduate classes are definitely much harder at ivy league schools, at least in stem.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      > Is the quality of education really better? My understanding is it's all just selection or an IQ test - strongest apply, strongest get in, places hire them based on the prestige of the name. What is your understanding based on?
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        It’s been studied. > For most students, the salary boost from going to a super-selective school is “generally indistinguishable from zero” after adjusting for student characteristics, such as test scores. In other words, if Mike and Drew have the same SAT scores and apply to the same colleges, but Mike gets into Harvard and Drew doesn’t, they can still expect to earn the same income throughout their careers. Despite Harvard’s international fame and energetic alumni outreach, somebody like Mike would not experience an observable “Harvard effect.” Dale and Krueger even found that the average SAT scores of all the schools a student applies to is a more powerful predictor of success than the school that student actually attends. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/does-it-matter-where-you-go-college/577816/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/does-it-ma... That’s not “education” directly, but does suggest an extremely strong applicant pool selection effect is happening.

R0b0t1 5y ago

Showing up in person is its own kind of pathology. If they offer masters online, why not undergrad? There's a lot of threads here with amazingly tone deaf people who are just "go to school" or "get a masters" when the gating factor is magicing up 4 years of potentially repeat credits to get your undergrad after already being a working professional.

gumby 5y ago
That kind of masters is just credentialism, like the corporate certs people pay for. They are a good moneymaker for the universities. There are other kinds of masters, like one attached to an extended bachelor’s (more classes, a project and/or do-op) or as a consolation prize for dropping out of a PhD program. These are more academic.

Animats 5y ago

even as population grows What population growth? The US college age population is flat, and the US grade school age population is dropping. US population growth is mostly old people living longer.[1] New York City's population is declining. Not the whole metro area, just the city. [1] https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/population-and-demographics/population-data/population/ https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/population-a...

mjmahone17 5y ago
New York City grew by 700,000 people between 2010 and 2020, while the metro area grew by 1.15 million. I’m not sure where you’re getting the declining figures from?
sdenton4 5y ago
Edit: I misread the graph, as the reply points out. Looking at the linked graphs, looks like you're right over the last five-ish years and quite wrong over the last twenty years: the number of 15-20 year olds grew from 20M to 40M since 2000, and has only been flat for a few years.
- dylan_b 5y ago
  I think you may have accidentally clicked on the timeseries for 55 to 64 year olds, which is understandable because the colors for the two are really close. 55 to 64 year olds have increased dramatically over the past 20 years, due to baby boomers getting older. Like the parent comment said, though, the numbers of 15-24 year olds have been more or less flat over the last 40 years.
  - sdenton4 5y ago
    I stand corrected!

abeppu 5y ago

Yes _and_ ... the same issues also apply to the UCs. E.g. there's been a lot of recent discussion about Berkeley increasing the size of its incoming class by a third. But my understanding is there was never a plan to increase faculty by the same proportion, or a plan to create 1/3 more classrooms. After having pushed so hard to bring instruction back to campus, Berkeley is asking a significant share of incoming freshman to do only online classes, which both increases the burden on faculty and removes some opportunities from those students. In 4 years will we see the graduation rate drop because class registration became more competitive and competent students cannot meet all their requirements? Will the distribution of majors change towards those that are most compatible with a hybrid, "I'm not sure whether I'll get a seat in the room" instruction?

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> the same issues also apply to the UCs. E.g. there's been a lot of recent discussion about Berkeley increasing the size of its incoming class by a third. Well, no, the reason there's been a lot of recent discussion about Berkeley's class size is that a local activist group got a judge to say it was illegal for Berkeley to increase admissions.
- sdenton4 5y ago
  And to be really clear, activist == nimbys, not actual activists.
  - Dracophoenix 5y ago
    Why are NIMBYs not activists? I've always found it odd that the same people whose property is taxed are told they shouldn't have a say in what's built with the money and are wrong for protesting such projects.
- abeppu 5y ago
  The fact that there are local and state political forces involved making arguments you may disagree with does not mean these issues (student:faculty ratios, classroom space, etc) don't apply.

giantg2 5y ago

"I could see a good argument for making an ivy league school with an enrollment of 100k, simply to break the ivy league elitist bullshit." The elitists would simply view that larger school as inferior.

sokoloff 5y ago
I think they'd not be entirely incorrect in that view. No school will grow 7x-20x and maintain the same standards in admissions, in education, or in alumni achievement per-capita. They'd instantly become the Ivy League Safety School, which would deter many of the strongest future applicants from applying and deter many of their strong admits from choosing that school if they had multiple Ivy admittances.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Is the quality of education really better? My understanding is it's all just selection or an IQ test - strongest apply, strongest get in, places hire them based on the prestige of the name.
  - wallscratch 5y ago
    As someone who went to a state school for undergrad and an ivy for phd (and took some undergrad cs classes there), and I can say that yes, the undergraduate classes are definitely much harder at ivy league schools, at least in stem.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > Is the quality of education really better? My understanding is it's all just selection or an IQ test - strongest apply, strongest get in, places hire them based on the prestige of the name. What is your understanding based on?
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      It’s been studied. > For most students, the salary boost from going to a super-selective school is “generally indistinguishable from zero” after adjusting for student characteristics, such as test scores. In other words, if Mike and Drew have the same SAT scores and apply to the same colleges, but Mike gets into Harvard and Drew doesn’t, they can still expect to earn the same income throughout their careers. Despite Harvard’s international fame and energetic alumni outreach, somebody like Mike would not experience an observable “Harvard effect.” Dale and Krueger even found that the average SAT scores of all the schools a student applies to is a more powerful predictor of success than the school that student actually attends. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/does-it-matter-where-you-go-college/577816/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/does-it-ma... That’s not “education” directly, but does suggest an extremely strong applicant pool selection effect is happening.