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What about EVs? It seems a big problem that 50%+ of the cost/value of a vehicle is a battery pack that will inevitably degrade over time, and that usually need

What about EVs? It seems a big problem that 50%+ of the cost/value of a vehicle is a battery pack that will inevitably degrade over time, and that usually needs replacing in it's entirity in the event of a fault or damage. We need some sort of standardised 'battery modules' that can be shared between vehicles, replaced/upgraded, salvaged from crash-damaged vehicles, etc. Instead of one single battery pack, there'd be a bank of maybe a dozen modules. They don't need to be user-replacable, but should be replacable by any competent mechanic. Some vehicles could come with unpopulated battery module slots, for optional range upgrades. Maybe others would be sold 'batteries not included', and you could buy or lease batteries from a choice of providers.

radicalbyte 5y ago
One of the big Chinese brands - Neo - have removable battery packs. Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw
sokoloff 5y ago
My LEAF had an individual battery module replaced (under warranty) and I’ve heard anecdotes of several other EV owners online with a similar repair story. They’re not “all or nothing” already. More details: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=30380 https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=30380
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
It's not standard, but this basically already exists. It just makes sense for the car makers themselves to build batteries from modular components at various levels. e.g. VW group uses one MEB 'platform' across it's different brand's EVs cars/vans, and the different models with different battery sizes, have different amounts of modules like these in them: https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/products/vw-id3-battery-module https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/products/vw-id3-batte... And it's almost guaranteed, though I haven't checked, that this module contains a bunch of smaller batteries. https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/modular-electric-drive-matrix-meb-3677 https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/modular-electric-driv...
tomashubelbauer 5y ago
If I understand the new Tesla structural battery pack thing right, it seems the direction for EVs will inevitably be to build batteries in the chassis of the car for lower weight and higher capacity and thus range. If this technique delivers on its promises, there will be no convincing automakers _or_ consumers to prefer swappable batteries, because those will not be able to compete with the specs of the structural battery. And I think to replace that one, you'll have to basically take the whole car apart. I'm interested to see how this is going to develop. I don't know if the EU law referenced in the forum thread is supposed to apply to mobile phones (are mobile phones household items?), but we can see this already happening there - in order for phones to be thin and slick, they no longer have user-swappable batteries, unless that user happens to be handy with a screw driver and owns the special bits you need to get into the phone. If a ban on hot-gluing batteries is going to be a thing, great, I think adding pull tabs doesn't increase the thickness or the weight of the phone significantly, so that makes sense. But how is this going to work out with cars with batteries built into their chassis?
- sschueller 5y ago
  Hilarious how Tesla was the one showing of how great their replacement charging is compared to filling an Audi with the largest gas tank on the market and now did a 180 to fuse the battery in such a way that you can throw out the while car when the battery dies.
  - Dunedan 5y ago
    I don't find that hilarious at all. Customers didn't want to get their their batteries swapped [1], thus Tesla didn't further pursue this path. [1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan-isnt-working-out-2015-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan...
- judge2020 5y ago
  > I don't know if the EU law referenced in the forum Apparently it's not even close to the headline[0]. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30662158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30662158
Neil44 5y ago
I would think that the design compromises to make batteries interchangeable between vehicles would be too great at the moment.
kevingadd 5y ago
The batteries in my Prius were replaceable, and lasted a very long time before I had to replace them (upwards of 10 years).
jillesvangurp 5y ago
You can get replacement packs for most common EVs from either the manufacturer or third parties. They are on the expensive side. But they last quite long and tend to come with pretty decent warranty of e.g. eight years or 150 k miles, which means they are very unlikely to fail before that (because that would be expensive for the manufacturer) and very likely to last a lot longer than that. E.g. Tesla seems to design for half a million miles. Two challenges with standardizing battery packs: - There is a lot of innovation in this space. A standardized battery would be obsolete by the time it would get widely used. The whole point of buying a premium model EV is getting good range and performance. So, manufacturers work hard on improving their battery packs and are competing on how well they work. - Battery packs and cars are designed together to make best use of space, manage center of gravity, re-enforce the structure of the car, etc. Inevitably, you are going to end up with different shapes of battery packs. Better designs here maximize cabin space, minimize manufacturing cost, etc. Most car manufacturers buy battery cells and design their own battery packs for this reason: they need to customize their packs. That makes workable standards in this space unlikely. But of course most bigger manufacturers do standardize components internally exactly so they can minimize their cost for servicing vehicles and leverage some economies of scale. No doubt over time, third parties will emerge that are able to service popular EV models with aftermarket battery replacements. Right now that's a tiny market because most EVs sold ever (i.e. produced in the last ten or so years) are still completely fine and not actually in need of new batteries. Probably in a decade or so this market will get a lot bigger and by that time battery replacement might also be a lot cheaper. For the same reason, battery recycling companies are not yet able to scale their business because there simply is not a lot of supply of badly degraded batteries. Actually, most batteries coming out of EVs end up having a second life in e.g. power storage solutions because even in a degraded state they still can hold some power.
- judge2020 5y ago
  > E.g. Tesla seems to design for half a million miles. Tesla supposedly only warranties for 150k on the S[0], although they have been known to last longer (194k then 324k miles [1] on a 2014 model year car). 0: https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty 1: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-model-s-that-surpassed-400000-miles/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-model-s-that-surpassed-40...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

radicalbyte 5y ago

One of the big Chinese brands - Neo - have removable battery packs. Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw

sokoloff 5y ago

My LEAF had an individual battery module replaced (under warranty) and I’ve heard anecdotes of several other EV owners online with a similar repair story. They’re not “all or nothing” already. More details: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=30380 https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=30380

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

It's not standard, but this basically already exists. It just makes sense for the car makers themselves to build batteries from modular components at various levels. e.g. VW group uses one MEB 'platform' across it's different brand's EVs cars/vans, and the different models with different battery sizes, have different amounts of modules like these in them: https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/products/vw-id3-battery-module https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/products/vw-id3-batte... And it's almost guaranteed, though I haven't checked, that this module contains a bunch of smaller batteries. https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/modular-electric-drive-matrix-meb-3677 https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/modular-electric-driv...

tomashubelbauer 5y ago

If I understand the new Tesla structural battery pack thing right, it seems the direction for EVs will inevitably be to build batteries in the chassis of the car for lower weight and higher capacity and thus range. If this technique delivers on its promises, there will be no convincing automakers _or_ consumers to prefer swappable batteries, because those will not be able to compete with the specs of the structural battery. And I think to replace that one, you'll have to basically take the whole car apart. I'm interested to see how this is going to develop. I don't know if the EU law referenced in the forum thread is supposed to apply to mobile phones (are mobile phones household items?), but we can see this already happening there - in order for phones to be thin and slick, they no longer have user-swappable batteries, unless that user happens to be handy with a screw driver and owns the special bits you need to get into the phone. If a ban on hot-gluing batteries is going to be a thing, great, I think adding pull tabs doesn't increase the thickness or the weight of the phone significantly, so that makes sense. But how is this going to work out with cars with batteries built into their chassis?

sschueller 5y ago
Hilarious how Tesla was the one showing of how great their replacement charging is compared to filling an Audi with the largest gas tank on the market and now did a 180 to fuse the battery in such a way that you can throw out the while car when the battery dies.
- Dunedan 5y ago
  I don't find that hilarious at all. Customers didn't want to get their their batteries swapped [1], thus Tesla didn't further pursue this path. [1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan-isnt-working-out-2015-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-battery-swapping-plan...
judge2020 5y ago
> I don't know if the EU law referenced in the forum Apparently it's not even close to the headline[0]. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30662158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30662158

Neil44 5y ago

I would think that the design compromises to make batteries interchangeable between vehicles would be too great at the moment.

kevingadd 5y ago

The batteries in my Prius were replaceable, and lasted a very long time before I had to replace them (upwards of 10 years).

jillesvangurp 5y ago

You can get replacement packs for most common EVs from either the manufacturer or third parties. They are on the expensive side. But they last quite long and tend to come with pretty decent warranty of e.g. eight years or 150 k miles, which means they are very unlikely to fail before that (because that would be expensive for the manufacturer) and very likely to last a lot longer than that. E.g. Tesla seems to design for half a million miles. Two challenges with standardizing battery packs: - There is a lot of innovation in this space. A standardized battery would be obsolete by the time it would get widely used. The whole point of buying a premium model EV is getting good range and performance. So, manufacturers work hard on improving their battery packs and are competing on how well they work. - Battery packs and cars are designed together to make best use of space, manage center of gravity, re-enforce the structure of the car, etc. Inevitably, you are going to end up with different shapes of battery packs. Better designs here maximize cabin space, minimize manufacturing cost, etc. Most car manufacturers buy battery cells and design their own battery packs for this reason: they need to customize their packs. That makes workable standards in this space unlikely. But of course most bigger manufacturers do standardize components internally exactly so they can minimize their cost for servicing vehicles and leverage some economies of scale. No doubt over time, third parties will emerge that are able to service popular EV models with aftermarket battery replacements. Right now that's a tiny market because most EVs sold ever (i.e. produced in the last ten or so years) are still completely fine and not actually in need of new batteries. Probably in a decade or so this market will get a lot bigger and by that time battery replacement might also be a lot cheaper. For the same reason, battery recycling companies are not yet able to scale their business because there simply is not a lot of supply of badly degraded batteries. Actually, most batteries coming out of EVs end up having a second life in e.g. power storage solutions because even in a degraded state they still can hold some power.

judge2020 5y ago
> E.g. Tesla seems to design for half a million miles. Tesla supposedly only warranties for 150k on the S[0], although they have been known to last longer (194k then 324k miles [1] on a 2014 model year car). 0: https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty 1: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-model-s-that-surpassed-400000-miles/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-model-s-that-surpassed-40...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]