4 ms·

Some assignment clauses are absurdly wide like "any IP you create belongs to us". This would imply absurd outcomes like when a software engineer signed that cl

by gyulai 5y ago

Some assignment clauses are absurdly wide like "any IP you create belongs to us". This would imply absurd outcomes like when a software engineer signed that clause as part of their work contract for software company X, but also records music on weekends or reads audiobooks for librivox or stuff like that, and it's now unclear whether the IP in that music or those audiobooks might also belong to company X. I think it's safe to assume that any such absurdly-wide assignment clause would end up unenforceable in a court of law and can thus be safely ignored.

greenyoda 5y ago
> I think it's safe to assume that any such absurdly-wide assignment clause would end up unenforceable in a court of law and can thus be safely ignored. Since you're apparently not a lawyer, you haven't read the employment contract and you don't even know what state this person lives in, telling them they can safely ignore a contract that they signed seems rather irresponsible. The only reasonable advice to give here is the usual: Consult a lawyer who is licensed to practice in your local jurisdiction.
- jotaen 5y ago
  OP asked for exactly those thoughts, though? > I apprecitate that this is probably one for a lawyer, but wanted to get some thoughts on this approach for protect one's side projects.
- Anunayj 5y ago
  or even consult your employer to give you a exception on that clause/if they're willing to change that contract with that clause removed (limit it to company working hours or work done on company resources)
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Is it common for employers to agree to your suggested limitations, or is there huge pushback? Anyone have experience? Also, I wonder how useful "company working hours" is, when many companies push for more than 8 hours in a day.
    - cj 5y ago
      Yes. (Yes they’ll grant exceptions, but they probably won’t want to change the terms in your employment contract - which is fine). When starting my company (which started as a side project while working for another company), I sat down with my boss and asked if he would agree to acknowledge in writing that the company will claim no right to IP relating to my side project. I drafted an email stating that, sent it to him, and he replied in agreement. That turned out to be sufficient enough for me. A few months later I quit when my side project turned into a full time job.
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        I'm curious. Have you consulted a lawyer to see if a commitment like that is sufficient? I mean, is your boss authorized to make such an arrangement?
        cj 5y ago
        If you asked a lawyer, they would probably say the agreement/exemption should be signed in writing (with more legalese) and not just an email agreement. That said: There is a lot of subjectivity and interpretation when it comes to law and lawsuits. If you went to trial, you would be showing the jury your employment agreement saying all IP belongs to the company, right before showing the jury a print out of the email saying the exact opposite. I think most jurors would side with the employee if the employer agreed to exclude IP assignment for a specific side project in writing. That doesn’t mean your company can’t still sue you (anyone can sue anyone for nearly anything). But doing so costs everyone money (and reputation), so it’s rarely in the best interest of the company to sue employees - especially if you have a paper trail indicating your employer is aware of what you’re doing outside of work and has given you written permission. All of the above assumes that the IP you’re creating is not something that would be competitive or damaging to your employer’s business. And that you’re acting in good faith and not misleading or somehow screwing over your employer in the process.
    - Anunayj 5y ago
      yeah the "company working hours" might not really work that well, cause it's not like people stop thinking about work outside of the company, if I come up with a solution outside my company hours does that mean suddenly i own the copyright to it? IANAL but I feel like there must be a better solution here? Maybe something like how the FSF requires a CLA on some projects, so any commits with proper --sign-off count as me as me giving permission to the company?
nicoburns 5y ago
If we interpret it literally; then it would seem that the employer would even own things like a birthday card you made for a friend. These clauses should definitely be outlawed!

by gyulai 5y ago

greenyoda 5y ago

> I think it's safe to assume that any such absurdly-wide assignment clause would end up unenforceable in a court of law and can thus be safely ignored. Since you're apparently not a lawyer, you haven't read the employment contract and you don't even know what state this person lives in, telling them they can safely ignore a contract that they signed seems rather irresponsible. The only reasonable advice to give here is the usual: Consult a lawyer who is licensed to practice in your local jurisdiction.

jotaen 5y ago
OP asked for exactly those thoughts, though? > I apprecitate that this is probably one for a lawyer, but wanted to get some thoughts on this approach for protect one's side projects.
Anunayj 5y ago
or even consult your employer to give you a exception on that clause/if they're willing to change that contract with that clause removed (limit it to company working hours or work done on company resources)
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Is it common for employers to agree to your suggested limitations, or is there huge pushback? Anyone have experience? Also, I wonder how useful "company working hours" is, when many companies push for more than 8 hours in a day.
  - cj 5y ago
    Yes. (Yes they’ll grant exceptions, but they probably won’t want to change the terms in your employment contract - which is fine). When starting my company (which started as a side project while working for another company), I sat down with my boss and asked if he would agree to acknowledge in writing that the company will claim no right to IP relating to my side project. I drafted an email stating that, sent it to him, and he replied in agreement. That turned out to be sufficient enough for me. A few months later I quit when my side project turned into a full time job.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      I'm curious. Have you consulted a lawyer to see if a commitment like that is sufficient? I mean, is your boss authorized to make such an arrangement?
      - cj 5y ago
        If you asked a lawyer, they would probably say the agreement/exemption should be signed in writing (with more legalese) and not just an email agreement. That said: There is a lot of subjectivity and interpretation when it comes to law and lawsuits. If you went to trial, you would be showing the jury your employment agreement saying all IP belongs to the company, right before showing the jury a print out of the email saying the exact opposite. I think most jurors would side with the employee if the employer agreed to exclude IP assignment for a specific side project in writing. That doesn’t mean your company can’t still sue you (anyone can sue anyone for nearly anything). But doing so costs everyone money (and reputation), so it’s rarely in the best interest of the company to sue employees - especially if you have a paper trail indicating your employer is aware of what you’re doing outside of work and has given you written permission. All of the above assumes that the IP you’re creating is not something that would be competitive or damaging to your employer’s business. And that you’re acting in good faith and not misleading or somehow screwing over your employer in the process.
  - Anunayj 5y ago
    yeah the "company working hours" might not really work that well, cause it's not like people stop thinking about work outside of the company, if I come up with a solution outside my company hours does that mean suddenly i own the copyright to it? IANAL but I feel like there must be a better solution here? Maybe something like how the FSF requires a CLA on some projects, so any commits with proper --sign-off count as me as me giving permission to the company?

nicoburns 5y ago

If we interpret it literally; then it would seem that the employer would even own things like a birthday card you made for a friend. These clauses should definitely be outlawed!