4 ms·

Your statement about Russia and its current engagement is correct (from what I read). But the bigger point: while we wait and expect Putin to somehow fail (eco

Your statement about Russia and its current engagement is correct (from what I read). But the bigger point: while we wait and expect Putin to somehow fail (economically, militarily, or both), Ukrainians are dying. Edit: when I write "wait", I mean "wait while the economic sanctions have a big enough impact". I'm not suggesting that nothing is being done neither that we should (or should not) engage militarily.

EGreg 5y ago
Backing Putin into a corner politically isn't going to lead him to retreat. Rather than doubling down on sanctions and promising ever-more draconian measures, the Biden administration should be developing "off ramps" or ways to de-escalate the conflict by giving Putin some sort of face-saving measure to withdraw or abide by a settlement that gives maximum peace and safety to Ukraine and stability and security to Europe.
- xcambar 5y ago
  Absolutely. As a European, I see Biden as less involved than his EU counterparts. Especially Macron and Scholz, at the moment. But I'd accept there could be a bias here :D
- moring 5y ago
  > (...) or ways to de-escalate the conflict by giving Putin some sort of face-saving measure (...) One thing I never understood is what "face-saving" means in this context. Could somebody try to explain that? Edit: to explain the question -- to me as a political and military layman in central Europe, it seems that the most face-saving move is to return to Russia and stop the war. Anything else would be worse. So either the key point is that I'm not the audience of such a move (who then? My guess is Russian politicians, military, or civilians), or I'm seriously getting wrong how one's moves are interpreted on the geopolitical stage.
  - zardo 5y ago
    I'm not sure if 'face' is actually something that motivates Putin. But it essentially means an option he can spin as a win, or at least not a loss.
    - moring 5y ago
      Towards who, and for what purpose, that's what I don't get -- except if the audience is the Russian population. Anybody in the western world has seen enough (or has been presented enough by the western media, if you're cynic) to make any attempt to interpret the outcome as "winning" futile.
      - medvezhenok 5y ago
        Specifically to the people who could overthrow him (I.e the security apparatus in Russia) as well as secondarily to the Russian people (who the security apparatus opportunistically pays attention to). If he retreats without enough of a “win”, he is done - hence backed into a corner.
        EGreg 5y ago
        I don't think he cares about being overthrown. I think he cares about Russia not being broken up / being relegated to something like Yugoslavia was. And he can be pretty ruthless in pursuing it.

EGreg 5y ago

Backing Putin into a corner politically isn't going to lead him to retreat. Rather than doubling down on sanctions and promising ever-more draconian measures, the Biden administration should be developing "off ramps" or ways to de-escalate the conflict by giving Putin some sort of face-saving measure to withdraw or abide by a settlement that gives maximum peace and safety to Ukraine and stability and security to Europe.

xcambar 5y ago
Absolutely. As a European, I see Biden as less involved than his EU counterparts. Especially Macron and Scholz, at the moment. But I'd accept there could be a bias here :D
moring 5y ago
> (...) or ways to de-escalate the conflict by giving Putin some sort of face-saving measure (...) One thing I never understood is what "face-saving" means in this context. Could somebody try to explain that? Edit: to explain the question -- to me as a political and military layman in central Europe, it seems that the most face-saving move is to return to Russia and stop the war. Anything else would be worse. So either the key point is that I'm not the audience of such a move (who then? My guess is Russian politicians, military, or civilians), or I'm seriously getting wrong how one's moves are interpreted on the geopolitical stage.
- zardo 5y ago
  I'm not sure if 'face' is actually something that motivates Putin. But it essentially means an option he can spin as a win, or at least not a loss.
  - moring 5y ago
    Towards who, and for what purpose, that's what I don't get -- except if the audience is the Russian population. Anybody in the western world has seen enough (or has been presented enough by the western media, if you're cynic) to make any attempt to interpret the outcome as "winning" futile.
    - medvezhenok 5y ago
      Specifically to the people who could overthrow him (I.e the security apparatus in Russia) as well as secondarily to the Russian people (who the security apparatus opportunistically pays attention to). If he retreats without enough of a “win”, he is done - hence backed into a corner.
      - EGreg 5y ago
        I don't think he cares about being overthrown. I think he cares about Russia not being broken up / being relegated to something like Yugoslavia was. And he can be pretty ruthless in pursuing it.