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> can't quarantine and hospitalize people for omicron when it is not dangerous There are enough people it’s dangerous for, especially in a population not widel

> can't quarantine and hospitalize people for omicron when it is not dangerous There are enough people it’s dangerous for, especially in a population not widely exposed to it and who haven’t had mRNA boosters, that it can cause hospitals to jam up and pictures of grandma dying on a stretcher outside a regional hospital. This is a political big deal when you’ve spent 2 years mouthing off about the decadent West’s poor handling of the pandemic.

thecleaner 5y ago
Sorry but what's the source that mRNA boosters work against Omicron ? I thought it's more like the vaccines neutralize threat from the original 2-3 variants and Omicron isn't deadly in and of itself. Also maybe this is China specific paranoia since neighbouring India doesn't care much and they seem to be doing fine wrt Omicron.
user_named 5y ago
Good point. This is going to be tricky.
refurb 5y ago
Indeed. I’ve been somewhat amazed at how China has handled it as of late. I get the short-term goal - stop Covid from taking hold by isolating new outbreaks. They have the manpower and the organization to isolate entire cities, do mass testing and lockdown neighborhoods. But: 1. It’s pretty clear with Omnicron the higher infectivity is making that task harder and lockdowns longer 2. The lockdowns have real economic impact that you might be able to weather in the short-term AND while other countries are in the same bucket, but it’s not a long term solution. 3. What is their long-term goal? Maintain zero Covid forever? Impossible unless a highly effective vaccine that prevents transmission is invented. I have family in another authoritarian country that took a similar approach to China. It bit them in the ass when the outbreaks were bigger than they could handle so then it became massive vaccination (by coming hat in hand to the companies/countries that they had earlier told “we have it under control”). Now it’s pretty much endemic, but hospitals aren’t overwhelmed so the government is just forging ahead. I think mostly due to the massive economic hit the country took. My guess is China will end up doing the same as the Western countries - once they realize Omicron isn’t that serious in vaccinated individuals, they’ll just stop restrictions and pretend that was the plan all along and pat themselves on the back on how much better and smarter China handled it.
- rfoo 5y ago
  > once they realize Omicron isn’t that serious in vaccinated individuals They already do. And more than one public figures of ChinaCDC posted "we had to live with COVID eventually" online. This is not what Xi is trying to do though, at least for now.
- ChemSpider 5y ago
  "once they realize Omicron isn’t that serious in vaccinated individuals" Afaik Sinovac is pretty much useless against Omicron.
  - dragonsh 5y ago
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      The 3rd shot of the mRNA vaccine clearly does reduce infection from Omicron somewhat (I would call it more than useless for that effect, you can call it whatever you want). They also are still very effective at preventing severe disease (against Omicron). This is the opposite of useless.
      - sundvor 5y ago
        Can confirm triple Pfeizer rendered what I assume was Omicron to something relatively mild for this non drinking, normal BMI near 50s male. Getting Covid still made me feel rather rubbish for a few days. Kudos and my personal thanks to the vaccine developers.
        cersa8 5y ago
        For almost everyone, vaccinated or not, Omicron is a minor nuisance. Somehow everyone seems to claim they have minor symptoms because they got vaccinated. This is human psychology 101 as it validates your decision for getting vaccinated.
RobertRoberts 5y ago
There are many people who will die from many common diseases that are communicable, including the standard flu. This argument doesn't hold up under scrutiny. At risk people (the vast, vast minority) need to self quarantine instead of having the unrealistic expectation that the everyone should instead of them.
- jspash 5y ago
  I see you are planning to spend your golden years sheltering entirely indoors with others of the vast vast minority? ie. the over 60-70's.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Would you rather the “over 0s” do that instead?
  - roenxi 5y ago
    Things that can kill a 70 year old include such threats as falling over, or moderate exercise. At no point in thousands of years of human history have we seriously tried to keep all the 70 year olds who were alive at the start of the year alive at the start oft he next year. It isn't possible. 60s is a different thing, but at 70 there are very real questions about whether a quarantine is even worth it. Do you risk losing half your remaining lifespan in a quarantine, attempting to avoid a 30% chance of death? The calculus is grim, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored.
throwaway4good 5y ago
Wrt. mRNA boosters, I know it is a common talking point that China is in trouble because it doesn't have mRNA-vaccines but I believe the vaccines that China have is of the type as the AstraZeneca vaccine, that is commonly used in the UK which now is free of COVID-restrictions. In other words; if is China is willing, it can go down the same path of vax-and-let-it-rip.
- y7 5y ago
  For a booster (3rd shot), the UK only uses mRNA vaccines. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-booster-dose-resources/covid-19-vaccination-a-guide-to-booster-vaccination-for-individuals-aged-18-years-and-over https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccinat... Edit: changed my ambiguous wording
  - jl6 5y ago
    Not true, Pfizer was used in the initial vaccination rollout too.
  - matthewmacleod 5y ago
    Neither of these points are quite correct - mRNA vaccines were extensively used for both initial vaccinations and boosters in the UK. IIRC the AZ vaccine was quite quickly withdrawn for everyone under 40.
  - grapescheesee 5y ago
    - endless1234 5y ago
      What? More than two doses is extremely common for vaccines. See e.g. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc...
    - grumbelbart 5y ago
      Huh? Plenty of previous non-covid vaccines require more than two shots.
JeremyNT 5y ago
I'm curious if Chinese hospitals would actually be overwhelmed. Most of the limitations in US hospitals are due to inefficient human resource allocation - our system incentivises many optional and low priority procedures, because that's where the profit is. A lot of our hypothetical capacity is "wasted" since our government can't go and tell e.g. dermatologists to start treating COVID patients and relocate to regions that are harder hit. In a managed economy like China, is this as big a deal? At least conceptually they should be better able to reallocate scarce medical resources than we are.

thecleaner 5y ago

Sorry but what's the source that mRNA boosters work against Omicron ? I thought it's more like the vaccines neutralize threat from the original 2-3 variants and Omicron isn't deadly in and of itself. Also maybe this is China specific paranoia since neighbouring India doesn't care much and they seem to be doing fine wrt Omicron.

user_named 5y ago

Good point. This is going to be tricky.

refurb 5y ago

Indeed. I’ve been somewhat amazed at how China has handled it as of late. I get the short-term goal - stop Covid from taking hold by isolating new outbreaks. They have the manpower and the organization to isolate entire cities, do mass testing and lockdown neighborhoods. But: 1. It’s pretty clear with Omnicron the higher infectivity is making that task harder and lockdowns longer 2. The lockdowns have real economic impact that you might be able to weather in the short-term AND while other countries are in the same bucket, but it’s not a long term solution. 3. What is their long-term goal? Maintain zero Covid forever? Impossible unless a highly effective vaccine that prevents transmission is invented. I have family in another authoritarian country that took a similar approach to China. It bit them in the ass when the outbreaks were bigger than they could handle so then it became massive vaccination (by coming hat in hand to the companies/countries that they had earlier told “we have it under control”). Now it’s pretty much endemic, but hospitals aren’t overwhelmed so the government is just forging ahead. I think mostly due to the massive economic hit the country took. My guess is China will end up doing the same as the Western countries - once they realize Omicron isn’t that serious in vaccinated individuals, they’ll just stop restrictions and pretend that was the plan all along and pat themselves on the back on how much better and smarter China handled it.

rfoo 5y ago
> once they realize Omicron isn’t that serious in vaccinated individuals They already do. And more than one public figures of ChinaCDC posted "we had to live with COVID eventually" online. This is not what Xi is trying to do though, at least for now.
ChemSpider 5y ago
"once they realize Omicron isn’t that serious in vaccinated individuals" Afaik Sinovac is pretty much useless against Omicron.
- dragonsh 5y ago
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    The 3rd shot of the mRNA vaccine clearly does reduce infection from Omicron somewhat (I would call it more than useless for that effect, you can call it whatever you want). They also are still very effective at preventing severe disease (against Omicron). This is the opposite of useless.
    - sundvor 5y ago
      Can confirm triple Pfeizer rendered what I assume was Omicron to something relatively mild for this non drinking, normal BMI near 50s male. Getting Covid still made me feel rather rubbish for a few days. Kudos and my personal thanks to the vaccine developers.
      - cersa8 5y ago
        For almost everyone, vaccinated or not, Omicron is a minor nuisance. Somehow everyone seems to claim they have minor symptoms because they got vaccinated. This is human psychology 101 as it validates your decision for getting vaccinated.

RobertRoberts 5y ago

There are many people who will die from many common diseases that are communicable, including the standard flu. This argument doesn't hold up under scrutiny. At risk people (the vast, vast minority) need to self quarantine instead of having the unrealistic expectation that the everyone should instead of them.

jspash 5y ago
I see you are planning to spend your golden years sheltering entirely indoors with others of the vast vast minority? ie. the over 60-70's.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Would you rather the “over 0s” do that instead?
- roenxi 5y ago
  Things that can kill a 70 year old include such threats as falling over, or moderate exercise. At no point in thousands of years of human history have we seriously tried to keep all the 70 year olds who were alive at the start of the year alive at the start oft he next year. It isn't possible. 60s is a different thing, but at 70 there are very real questions about whether a quarantine is even worth it. Do you risk losing half your remaining lifespan in a quarantine, attempting to avoid a 30% chance of death? The calculus is grim, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored.

throwaway4good 5y ago

Wrt. mRNA boosters, I know it is a common talking point that China is in trouble because it doesn't have mRNA-vaccines but I believe the vaccines that China have is of the type as the AstraZeneca vaccine, that is commonly used in the UK which now is free of COVID-restrictions. In other words; if is China is willing, it can go down the same path of vax-and-let-it-rip.

y7 5y ago
For a booster (3rd shot), the UK only uses mRNA vaccines. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-booster-dose-resources/covid-19-vaccination-a-guide-to-booster-vaccination-for-individuals-aged-18-years-and-over https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccinat... Edit: changed my ambiguous wording
- jl6 5y ago
  Not true, Pfizer was used in the initial vaccination rollout too.
- matthewmacleod 5y ago
  Neither of these points are quite correct - mRNA vaccines were extensively used for both initial vaccinations and boosters in the UK. IIRC the AZ vaccine was quite quickly withdrawn for everyone under 40.
- grapescheesee 5y ago
  - endless1234 5y ago
    What? More than two doses is extremely common for vaccines. See e.g. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc...
  - grumbelbart 5y ago
    Huh? Plenty of previous non-covid vaccines require more than two shots.

JeremyNT 5y ago

I'm curious if Chinese hospitals would actually be overwhelmed. Most of the limitations in US hospitals are due to inefficient human resource allocation - our system incentivises many optional and low priority procedures, because that's where the profit is. A lot of our hypothetical capacity is "wasted" since our government can't go and tell e.g. dermatologists to start treating COVID patients and relocate to regions that are harder hit. In a managed economy like China, is this as big a deal? At least conceptually they should be better able to reallocate scarce medical resources than we are.