5 ms·
You start by "suggesting Russians are playing a rational game..." but literally the next sentence is condescending western rhetoric. We don't know the strategy
by sdoering 5y ago
You start by "suggesting Russians are playing a rational game..." but literally the next sentence is condescending western rhetoric.
We don't know the strategy and the plan. We might, even maybe reasonably, deduce that Russian leadership thought that Ucrain would fall more quickly. And that some form of stable solution would be the result.
But most people don't only have one plan to reach a longer term strategic goal. So thinking of "the Russians" as rational players (and taking a lot of potentially missing information into account due to every body only hearing their own side's propaganda) we could at least ask ourselves, if the plan was to overthrow the Ucrain quickly, to probably secure the Donbas and also probably secure the water resources for the Crimean peninsula as a strategic necessity, what course of action remains for Putin now that at least the quickness of the action failed. While there are already people reporting that Russia secured most of the Donbas and the water resources for the Crimean. But how much is propaganda there, I don't know.
So Putin needs to appear as the winner in the end. At least internally. He needs to sell this to his power base and his own ego as well probably.
The west wants/needs to see the Ucrain at least as partial winner. And the sanctions to have worked (because that was sold as solution to the voters).
Can there be a way to end the killing, save thousands of lives and reach these goals? I don't know. But I would be at least hesitant to call Putin irrational. Maybe that is valid if one defines the criteria of evaluation up front. What defines 'rational'. Because I suggest that within Putin's worldview these actions make some forms of sense to him and. As said. From the outside perspective it might be reasonable to call it irrational. But that might not help the world in finding a way out. For that one needs to understand why it makes sense to Putin to act the way he does right now.
- beebmam 5y agoDon't delude yourself and others. Wars of aggression are the prelude to world wars and mass scale violence.
- borkt 5y agoWars are one of many ways to organize the world. To pretend they are any one thing is naieve, just look at the Opium Wars and try to explain it in the context of todays players. It surely involved aggression, it surely affected change in much of the world, but was there mass scale violence? How does that violence compare to the war in Iraq, which clearly was a war of aggression to the indidviduals who conceived of it, even if they misled the vast majority of those they represent? I am incredibly concerned by the number of people speaking about what is and isnt right now as if they have any idea of what the facts are or who is making decisions on either side right now. Please keep in mind the stakes are nuclear war;
- sdoering 5y agoI try to neither delude myself nor others. I try to understand what makes people tick. And act the way they do. Unilaterally declaring other insane or crazy or anything like that, while making ourselves feel good and superior, doesn't help in understanding why people act like they do. And understanding might help in finding better ways to act and reach common goals like reducing the number of people suffering in the Ucraine right now. Take the Nuremberg trials for example. As a German emotionally I think more people should have been trialed. More punished by hanging. Especially the SS troops managing the concentration camps. And while it would probably have felt like righteous punishment of these crazy evil German Nazi Bastards it probably would not have helped in building a stable western democracy in at least one part of Germany. That is the reason I tey to think in understanding the motives and thought processes of people involved. Not to delude myself or argue for the deeds of Putin to be less than the despicable acts of war they are. Putin should clearly be tried as the war criminal he is. Together with the ruling elite. But that doesn't make my need to understand go away.
- CRConrad 5y ago> Unilaterally declaring other insane or crazy or anything like that, while making ourselves feel good and superior, doesn't help in understanding why people act like they do. Why not? If they in fact are insane, then how would not realising that be useful? On the contrary, I'd say if they are and we realise that they are, we have a much better chance at understanding why they act like they do than if we pretend they aren't.
- nextlevelwizard 5y ago>condescending western rhetoric. >Ucrain I don't know. Just a smell.
- baybal2 5y ago