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Even western polls show around 54% population support for Ukraine to join NATO [1]. Not by a huge majority. And I suspect the Eastern parts the number is substa

Even western polls show around 54% population support for Ukraine to join NATO [1]. Not by a huge majority. And I suspect the Eastern parts the number is substantially lower. When Ukraine is discussed, a lot of western media assumes east and west in same terms which is really not the case. [1] https://www.iri.org/resources/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-support-for-eu-nato-membership-concerns-over-economy-and-vaccines-for-covid-19/ https://www.iri.org/resources/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-support...

lalaland1125 5y ago
I think it's a bit misleading to state that 54% figure without also mentioning that 18% didn't answer the question. So 54% supported joining NATO and 28% opposed, almost a 2 to 1 ratio of support to opposition.
dillondoyle 5y ago
polling is way higher on EU trade and EU membership though and strong support !== necessarily mean strong opposition. Just a couple google sources before the invasion put it at 69%, 57%, 58% join EU versus 21% wanting the opposite of an economic union with ussr countries. IDK xtabs or if there is a poll with strong/lean scale, but a strong plurality above 50% is pretty big regardless see another example last link below showing decent majority strong yes with relatively small no. Main point is that NATO wasn't even on the table for Ukraine. The first invasion happened after the Ukrainian people chose a new government because Yanukovych refused to sign the EU trade agreement. I think a lot of countries in their position (like finland) the citizens were rightly worried about poking the nuclear bear by trying to join NATO. There are more than a few articles and polls out now showing the sentiment has changed now with this recent war. Finland for example is now above 53% join nato for while only 28% against. Another example of lopsided enthusiasm painting a different picture of support. https://www.iri.org/resources/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-support-for-eu-nato-membership-concerns-over-economy-and-vaccines-for-covid-19/ https://www.iri.org/resources/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-support... https://www.statista.com/chart/26933/ukrainians-survey-nato-eu/ https://www.statista.com/chart/26933/ukrainians-survey-nato-... https://www.eureporter.co/world/ukraine/2021/03/16/ukrainians-are-ready-to-join-the-european-union-and-nato-says-survey/ https://www.eureporter.co/world/ukraine/2021/03/16/ukrainian... https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/03/03/business/finnish-swedish-people-want-neutral-nations-nato-poll-says/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/03/03/business/finnish-swed...
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  I don't think Ucraine will ever be a member of the EU since that requires the agreement of all member countries.
  - dillondoyle 5y ago
    Maybe. We'll see how this shakes out. One point I was trying to make was Russia's actions have galvanized support in the opposite direction Putin wanted. I don't know why what I contributed is worth downvotes. I provided sources showing a difference in EU support compared to NATO support to parent comment and gave reasonable arguments that even a majority in mid 50s of support does not mean the opposition is -100*-1 it's usually way less.
friedturkey 5y ago
I don't think Ukraine was even being seriously considered for NATO until Russia decided to surround the country with its military recently. It's like punching someone, some guy passing by tells you to stop, then you justify your reason for punching that person because you were worried that the person who told you to stop was going to attack you. Nobody was going to do anything to say anything to you if you hadn't gone out of your way to attack someone.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > I don't think Ukraine was even being seriously considered for NATO until Russia decided to surround the country with its military recently. NATO, in a statement from the NATO Summit, explicitly indicated last June (so, before the late 2021 encirclement) the intention that Ukraine would join the alliance through the Membership Action Plan. This reiterated a 2008 policy statement that had effectively been shelved by the Yanukovych governments anti-NATO position, but never formally restated after a more NATO-friendly government had emerged in Ukraine and sought to advance towards membership.
  - friedturkey 5y ago
    Do you think Russia's funding of terrorist groups in the eastern portions of Ukraine known for atrocities against civilians could've influenced that decision? Or maybe going back farther Russia's sudden seizure of Crimea with a fraudulent vote with 97% in support could've been what made Ukraine nervous that they'd be invaded and seek support from other countries? Or maybe going back a little farther to the USSR's atrocities against Ukraine, including Holodomor--the outright genocide of the Ukrainian people--might've been the thing that makes Ukraine want to ally with literally any country but Russia? The idea that Ukraine should want to associate with Russia is the most bizarre political claim there ever was. Their history is nothing but being ravaged and literally raped by Russia, so them considering joining NATO is nothing but a big "no shit". Putin deserves to be surrounded for his actions. All he's done is shown that the Russia's intentions to destroy the Ukrainian people haven't changed in 100 years.
    - 5y ago

lalaland1125 5y ago

I think it's a bit misleading to state that 54% figure without also mentioning that 18% didn't answer the question. So 54% supported joining NATO and 28% opposed, almost a 2 to 1 ratio of support to opposition.

dillondoyle 5y ago

polling is way higher on EU trade and EU membership though and strong support !== necessarily mean strong opposition. Just a couple google sources before the invasion put it at 69%, 57%, 58% join EU versus 21% wanting the opposite of an economic union with ussr countries. IDK xtabs or if there is a poll with strong/lean scale, but a strong plurality above 50% is pretty big regardless see another example last link below showing decent majority strong yes with relatively small no. Main point is that NATO wasn't even on the table for Ukraine. The first invasion happened after the Ukrainian people chose a new government because Yanukovych refused to sign the EU trade agreement. I think a lot of countries in their position (like finland) the citizens were rightly worried about poking the nuclear bear by trying to join NATO. There are more than a few articles and polls out now showing the sentiment has changed now with this recent war. Finland for example is now above 53% join nato for while only 28% against. Another example of lopsided enthusiasm painting a different picture of support. https://www.iri.org/resources/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-support-for-eu-nato-membership-concerns-over-economy-and-vaccines-for-covid-19/ https://www.iri.org/resources/iri-ukraine-poll-shows-support... https://www.statista.com/chart/26933/ukrainians-survey-nato-eu/ https://www.statista.com/chart/26933/ukrainians-survey-nato-... https://www.eureporter.co/world/ukraine/2021/03/16/ukrainians-are-ready-to-join-the-european-union-and-nato-says-survey/ https://www.eureporter.co/world/ukraine/2021/03/16/ukrainian... https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/03/03/business/finnish-swedish-people-want-neutral-nations-nato-poll-says/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/03/03/business/finnish-swed...

DeathArrow 5y ago
I don't think Ucraine will ever be a member of the EU since that requires the agreement of all member countries.
- dillondoyle 5y ago
  Maybe. We'll see how this shakes out. One point I was trying to make was Russia's actions have galvanized support in the opposite direction Putin wanted. I don't know why what I contributed is worth downvotes. I provided sources showing a difference in EU support compared to NATO support to parent comment and gave reasonable arguments that even a majority in mid 50s of support does not mean the opposition is -100*-1 it's usually way less.

friedturkey 5y ago

I don't think Ukraine was even being seriously considered for NATO until Russia decided to surround the country with its military recently. It's like punching someone, some guy passing by tells you to stop, then you justify your reason for punching that person because you were worried that the person who told you to stop was going to attack you. Nobody was going to do anything to say anything to you if you hadn't gone out of your way to attack someone.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> I don't think Ukraine was even being seriously considered for NATO until Russia decided to surround the country with its military recently. NATO, in a statement from the NATO Summit, explicitly indicated last June (so, before the late 2021 encirclement) the intention that Ukraine would join the alliance through the Membership Action Plan. This reiterated a 2008 policy statement that had effectively been shelved by the Yanukovych governments anti-NATO position, but never formally restated after a more NATO-friendly government had emerged in Ukraine and sought to advance towards membership.
- friedturkey 5y ago
  Do you think Russia's funding of terrorist groups in the eastern portions of Ukraine known for atrocities against civilians could've influenced that decision? Or maybe going back farther Russia's sudden seizure of Crimea with a fraudulent vote with 97% in support could've been what made Ukraine nervous that they'd be invaded and seek support from other countries? Or maybe going back a little farther to the USSR's atrocities against Ukraine, including Holodomor--the outright genocide of the Ukrainian people--might've been the thing that makes Ukraine want to ally with literally any country but Russia? The idea that Ukraine should want to associate with Russia is the most bizarre political claim there ever was. Their history is nothing but being ravaged and literally raped by Russia, so them considering joining NATO is nothing but a big "no shit". Putin deserves to be surrounded for his actions. All he's done is shown that the Russia's intentions to destroy the Ukrainian people haven't changed in 100 years.
  - 5y ago