4 ms·

What you're describing is a combination of electrolysis and the Sabatier process [1]. And as I explain before there are major obstacles to actually converting e

What you're describing is a combination of electrolysis and the Sabatier process [1]. And as I explain before there are major obstacles to actually converting electricity to methane at scale. It needs a source of carbon, and extraction of carbon from the air or exhaust is not feasible. Furthermore, massive electrolysis of hydrogen is also not something we have been able to do. Almost all hydrogen is produced through carbon-emitting steam reformation [2]. In short, converting electricity to methane and then back to electricity again is not a presently available option and it's unclear whether it'll ever be viable at stale. Grid-scale energy storage remains an unsolved problem 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

ncmncm 5y ago
It is fortunate that you are not making decisions, then, for the people who are directing the use of billions of dollars invested in exactly the activities you insist do not work.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  Are they? Who is building grid-scale power to gas storage?
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    The Brits are switching to store wind-generated hydrogen in undersea cavities where they now stockpile natural gas. A similar project is going on in Utah, and another in Texas. All three are utility-scale production systems, not pilot projects. Other storage media being built out for full-scale production use include iron-air batteries, where (IIRC) $1.5B is going into factories, a liquified-air storage system in Chile ($0.5B), and synthetic ammonia in Norway. Nobody can track even a fraction of the utility-scale pumped-hydro projects under construction world-wide. We will need hundreds times as much of these, and of others, in the end, which will all take decades to build out.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      Coverage I'm reading about this project says it's not only a prototype, it's also a planned prototype. The prototype hasn't even been built yet: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55763356 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55763356 You said it'd be stored in caves, so perhaps it's a different project. It'd be good to link to this project. The Utah project looks like it's still trying to secure funding, and hasn't broken ground. https://power.mhi.com/regions/amer/news/20210511.html#:~:text=The%20massive%20salt%20formation%20is,5%2C500%20metric%20tonnes%20of%20hydrogen https://power.mhi.com/regions/amer/news/20210511.html#:~:tex.... Similarly in Texas. The plans for this project were unveiled only a couple weeks ago: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/green-hydrogen-international-announces-hydrogen-city-texas--the-worlds-largest-green-hydrogen-production-and-storage-hub-301494988.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/green-hydrogen-inte...
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        To have built them, you first have to plan, fund, and then actually build them, all of which takes actual time. Nobody announces billion-dollar physical construction projects for untested tech.
        Manuel_D 5y ago
        Right, these alternative energy storage systems are untested technology. Contrary to your prior claims, they're not being built at grid scale currently.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        You mean, they are not being operated at grid scale, currently. Things still being built need to finish being built before they go into service. Just yesterday, you said some unspecified "breakthroughs" would be needed. Now you point to construction not finished. You are clutching at straws. The more honest course would be to admit you were just wrong.
        5y ago
- belorn 5y ago
  The Swedish government made a viability study on green hydrogen a years ago, which is public as all other government papers are. The cost estimate was around 100 times that of burning natural gas, or about 10 times higher than nuclear. It has potential if it can fall in prices, but so far it has not. The study also referenced German studies with similar findings. It is so economical nonviable that there isn't even small scale experiments to get the ball running as a storage medium. There is however some bright spots for green hydrogen when hydrogen itself can be used. Green hydrogen is only a few times more expensive than using fossil fuel in order to create hydrogen, and in that situation green hydrogen has found a place. It also reduces those industries CO2 emissions which can then be turned into profits in terms of trading existing emissions rights. As fossil fuels prices goes up, the economical viability of green hydrogen in hydrogen using industries goes up, but the price compared to nuclear remain the same.

ncmncm 5y ago

It is fortunate that you are not making decisions, then, for the people who are directing the use of billions of dollars invested in exactly the activities you insist do not work.

Manuel_D 5y ago
Are they? Who is building grid-scale power to gas storage?
- ncmncm 5y ago
  The Brits are switching to store wind-generated hydrogen in undersea cavities where they now stockpile natural gas. A similar project is going on in Utah, and another in Texas. All three are utility-scale production systems, not pilot projects. Other storage media being built out for full-scale production use include iron-air batteries, where (IIRC) $1.5B is going into factories, a liquified-air storage system in Chile ($0.5B), and synthetic ammonia in Norway. Nobody can track even a fraction of the utility-scale pumped-hydro projects under construction world-wide. We will need hundreds times as much of these, and of others, in the end, which will all take decades to build out.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    Coverage I'm reading about this project says it's not only a prototype, it's also a planned prototype. The prototype hasn't even been built yet: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55763356 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55763356 You said it'd be stored in caves, so perhaps it's a different project. It'd be good to link to this project. The Utah project looks like it's still trying to secure funding, and hasn't broken ground. https://power.mhi.com/regions/amer/news/20210511.html#:~:text=The%20massive%20salt%20formation%20is,5%2C500%20metric%20tonnes%20of%20hydrogen https://power.mhi.com/regions/amer/news/20210511.html#:~:tex.... Similarly in Texas. The plans for this project were unveiled only a couple weeks ago: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/green-hydrogen-international-announces-hydrogen-city-texas--the-worlds-largest-green-hydrogen-production-and-storage-hub-301494988.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/green-hydrogen-inte...
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      To have built them, you first have to plan, fund, and then actually build them, all of which takes actual time. Nobody announces billion-dollar physical construction projects for untested tech.
      - Manuel_D 5y ago
        Right, these alternative energy storage systems are untested technology. Contrary to your prior claims, they're not being built at grid scale currently.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        You mean, they are not being operated at grid scale, currently. Things still being built need to finish being built before they go into service. Just yesterday, you said some unspecified "breakthroughs" would be needed. Now you point to construction not finished. You are clutching at straws. The more honest course would be to admit you were just wrong.
        5y ago
belorn 5y ago
The Swedish government made a viability study on green hydrogen a years ago, which is public as all other government papers are. The cost estimate was around 100 times that of burning natural gas, or about 10 times higher than nuclear. It has potential if it can fall in prices, but so far it has not. The study also referenced German studies with similar findings. It is so economical nonviable that there isn't even small scale experiments to get the ball running as a storage medium. There is however some bright spots for green hydrogen when hydrogen itself can be used. Green hydrogen is only a few times more expensive than using fossil fuel in order to create hydrogen, and in that situation green hydrogen has found a place. It also reduces those industries CO2 emissions which can then be turned into profits in terms of trading existing emissions rights. As fossil fuels prices goes up, the economical viability of green hydrogen in hydrogen using industries goes up, but the price compared to nuclear remain the same.