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>Just wait (perhaps it's already happening) until TV manufacturers install 4g/5g modems in their devices. I hear this raised every now and then, but is that ev

>Just wait (perhaps it's already happening) until TV manufacturers install 4g/5g modems in their devices. I hear this raised every now and then, but is that even feasible economically? Those embedded cell connections are a recurring cost, after all. I'm curious if the per-unit revenue from ads and tracking is large enough to justify the per-unit cost to send/receive that data over a cell connection. Seems like UI nudges and dark patterns to push users into connecting their TVs to their home internet connection would be cheaper and more effective.

heavyset_go 5y ago
I imagine that, at some point, advertising will pay for the costs of internet connections. I can also imagine companies subsidizing the costs of internet connections just so they can get their hands on data, or to accelerate the business model.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Companies subsidizing the cost of internet connections is already historic fact. Google fiber, googles project loon, and facebooks India initiative are already examples.
nobody9999 5y ago
>I hear this raised every now and then, but is that even feasible economically? Those embedded cell connections are a recurring cost, after all. That's a great question. If it's not today, it likely will be soon. I think it may be so already. These are niche cases, but the costs aren't so different than TVs: I use a CPAP machine and the one I got six years ago had a cellular modem (as well as WiFi) without my involvement in any mobile account. Thankfully, I was able to disable that (and a big "Fuck you!" to Philips for being such rapacious scumbags). I also got a Kindle as a gift in ~2004 or so and it had both WiFi and a cellular modem with no charges to me. >Seems like UI nudges and dark patterns to push users into connecting their TVs to their home internet connection would be cheaper and more effective. Cheaper? Definitely. Effective? Most likely yes. More effective than a cellular modem? Methinks not so much. A device connecting to a network over which you have no control would be much more effective, IMHO. Aside from a small group of folks who will shoot, stab, defenestrate, bend, fold, spindle or mutilate such a device, most folks would likely just shrug and move on while being forced to watch ads. And more's the pity.
AnonC 5y ago
It’s not just a recurring cost with 4G/5G modems, but it’s also practically infeasible in many countries where getting a cellular connection of any kind requires KYC and related formalities. There’s no way these TV manufacturing companies can buy one connection per TV (and accept the liabilities that come with such a connection) or get their customers to have one. If they do try WiFi to a known hotspot that the company has deployed almost everywhere, that will be a huge cost with very little benefit. If they make the TV into one of those monstrous Alexa Show (?) devices where you can make calls or do other things, they may be able to persuade some customers to get a connection for the TV. Even then it’s a stretch because most TVs are in one place for years and the places they’re in would have WiFi/broadband coverage in the same or a nearby room.
- nobody9999 5y ago
  >It’s not just a recurring cost with 4G/5G modems, but it’s also practically infeasible in many countries where getting a cellular connection of any kind requires KYC and related formalities. That doesn't seem to bother Amazon's Whispernet. Amazon has been doing this for years[0]. Free cellular access for specific Kindle devices for specific purposes. They've sold many millions of those around the world. Granted, Amazon was generating revenue from selling ebooks, which was the incentive for providing the service. >There’s no way these TV manufacturing companies can buy one connection per TV (and accept the liabilities that come with such a connection) or get their customers to have one. If they follow Amazon's lead, they'll enter into contracts with global networks (Amazon uses AT&T) for bulk rates on carrying their products' traffic. That said, it's not at all clear to me what the break even point might be on a per-device basis for these TVs, but the first search result for "WiFI/LTE chipset price" yielded this link[1]: ZTE 4G Module LTE Wireless Wifi Board with Sim Card Slot Mini Router PCB for IOT Camera GPS Sensor Data Transmission 1 - 499 Pieces $17.49 500 - 1999 Pieces $15.99 >=2000 Pieces $14.99 I'm guessing that Sony, LG, Samsung et. al can get much better prices for their specific needs than some random Alibaba listing. That, and they already have WiFi and wired ethernet, so adding the capability is easily within reach. Whether or not it would be profitable for the TV manufacturers is an open question. I'm not saying that it will happen, just that it could. And that would make me sad. [0] https://smallbusiness.chron.com/amazon-whispernet-work-58992.html https://smallbusiness.chron.com/amazon-whispernet-work-58992... [1] https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/4g-Lte-Zte4g-ZTE-4G-Module_1600451624609.html?s=p https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/4g-Lte-Zte4g-ZTE-4G-M...
Groxx 5y ago
Car GPS devices have had them built in for almost two decades now, and they routinely sold for around $100 or less as a one-time purchase once they were relatively common (unless you wanted weekly over-the-air map updates rather than monthly or quarterly). Far more TVs are sold than those car navigation units ever did. I don't think money is an issue if they want a slow back channel. If they wanted to ship all ads over it, sure, but periodic phone-homes? Updates to DNS-bypassing lists of IP addresses? Unless they're prevented from selling it, they'll do it eventually.
m-p-3 5y ago
They'll go with a LoRa/LoRaWAN adapter and make a mesh network until it reaches a TV from their brand that is connected to the Internet and upload all the data.
Nextgrid 5y ago
The general public seems complacent when it comes to advertising, stalking and being treated like shit by their tech in general, so I don’t see it being necessary to put modems & cellular plans in appliances because the vast majority of people is happy to voluntarily give it internet access anyway. Until this changes (and I don’t see it happening - if anything, the new generations seem even more happy with living in an advertising-saturated world), the people who resist will be a tiny minority not worth going after.

heavyset_go 5y ago

I imagine that, at some point, advertising will pay for the costs of internet connections. I can also imagine companies subsidizing the costs of internet connections just so they can get their hands on data, or to accelerate the business model.

HWR_14 5y ago
Companies subsidizing the cost of internet connections is already historic fact. Google fiber, googles project loon, and facebooks India initiative are already examples.

nobody9999 5y ago

>I hear this raised every now and then, but is that even feasible economically? Those embedded cell connections are a recurring cost, after all. That's a great question. If it's not today, it likely will be soon. I think it may be so already. These are niche cases, but the costs aren't so different than TVs: I use a CPAP machine and the one I got six years ago had a cellular modem (as well as WiFi) without my involvement in any mobile account. Thankfully, I was able to disable that (and a big "Fuck you!" to Philips for being such rapacious scumbags). I also got a Kindle as a gift in ~2004 or so and it had both WiFi and a cellular modem with no charges to me. >Seems like UI nudges and dark patterns to push users into connecting their TVs to their home internet connection would be cheaper and more effective. Cheaper? Definitely. Effective? Most likely yes. More effective than a cellular modem? Methinks not so much. A device connecting to a network over which you have no control would be much more effective, IMHO. Aside from a small group of folks who will shoot, stab, defenestrate, bend, fold, spindle or mutilate such a device, most folks would likely just shrug and move on while being forced to watch ads. And more's the pity.

AnonC 5y ago

It’s not just a recurring cost with 4G/5G modems, but it’s also practically infeasible in many countries where getting a cellular connection of any kind requires KYC and related formalities. There’s no way these TV manufacturing companies can buy one connection per TV (and accept the liabilities that come with such a connection) or get their customers to have one. If they do try WiFi to a known hotspot that the company has deployed almost everywhere, that will be a huge cost with very little benefit. If they make the TV into one of those monstrous Alexa Show (?) devices where you can make calls or do other things, they may be able to persuade some customers to get a connection for the TV. Even then it’s a stretch because most TVs are in one place for years and the places they’re in would have WiFi/broadband coverage in the same or a nearby room.

nobody9999 5y ago
>It’s not just a recurring cost with 4G/5G modems, but it’s also practically infeasible in many countries where getting a cellular connection of any kind requires KYC and related formalities. That doesn't seem to bother Amazon's Whispernet. Amazon has been doing this for years[0]. Free cellular access for specific Kindle devices for specific purposes. They've sold many millions of those around the world. Granted, Amazon was generating revenue from selling ebooks, which was the incentive for providing the service. >There’s no way these TV manufacturing companies can buy one connection per TV (and accept the liabilities that come with such a connection) or get their customers to have one. If they follow Amazon's lead, they'll enter into contracts with global networks (Amazon uses AT&T) for bulk rates on carrying their products' traffic. That said, it's not at all clear to me what the break even point might be on a per-device basis for these TVs, but the first search result for "WiFI/LTE chipset price" yielded this link[1]: ZTE 4G Module LTE Wireless Wifi Board with Sim Card Slot Mini Router PCB for IOT Camera GPS Sensor Data Transmission 1 - 499 Pieces $17.49 500 - 1999 Pieces $15.99 >=2000 Pieces $14.99 I'm guessing that Sony, LG, Samsung et. al can get much better prices for their specific needs than some random Alibaba listing. That, and they already have WiFi and wired ethernet, so adding the capability is easily within reach. Whether or not it would be profitable for the TV manufacturers is an open question. I'm not saying that it will happen, just that it could. And that would make me sad. [0] https://smallbusiness.chron.com/amazon-whispernet-work-58992.html https://smallbusiness.chron.com/amazon-whispernet-work-58992... [1] https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/4g-Lte-Zte4g-ZTE-4G-Module_1600451624609.html?s=p https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/4g-Lte-Zte4g-ZTE-4G-M...

Groxx 5y ago

Car GPS devices have had them built in for almost two decades now, and they routinely sold for around $100 or less as a one-time purchase once they were relatively common (unless you wanted weekly over-the-air map updates rather than monthly or quarterly). Far more TVs are sold than those car navigation units ever did. I don't think money is an issue if they want a slow back channel. If they wanted to ship all ads over it, sure, but periodic phone-homes? Updates to DNS-bypassing lists of IP addresses? Unless they're prevented from selling it, they'll do it eventually.

m-p-3 5y ago

They'll go with a LoRa/LoRaWAN adapter and make a mesh network until it reaches a TV from their brand that is connected to the Internet and upload all the data.

Nextgrid 5y ago

The general public seems complacent when it comes to advertising, stalking and being treated like shit by their tech in general, so I don’t see it being necessary to put modems & cellular plans in appliances because the vast majority of people is happy to voluntarily give it internet access anyway. Until this changes (and I don’t see it happening - if anything, the new generations seem even more happy with living in an advertising-saturated world), the people who resist will be a tiny minority not worth going after.