4 ms·

I’m surprised how submissive Canada and Trudeau acted. The charges were made up and yet they were too submissive to secure their releases. Let’s just say I’m n

I’m surprised how submissive Canada and Trudeau acted. The charges were made up and yet they were too submissive to secure their releases. Let’s just say I’m not sure the response would have been as mild had they kidnapped Americans instead.

barbazoo 5y ago
What should the Canadian government have done differently?
thevagrant 5y ago
You think Trudeau commands the judicial system?
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  No, but surely he has some say in foreign relations, aka how Canada responded to China.
bluefirebrand 5y ago
Everything I have seen out of Trudeau is that he is at the beck and call of special interest groups, not the Canadian people. I wouldn't go so far to say he's a puppet of China's government, but he's certainly timid with them.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Special interest groups aside, being... delicate... about China is a position only a few countries can afford NOT to take. Antagonizing them may play well to a certain constituency, but they'll be the same ones kicking you out of office when the economy tanks. The only reason the world has moved as quickly on Russia as they have is because Russia's economy is 1/10th the size of China's.
  - someperson 5y ago
    Australia has taken the western world's toughest stance on China, and is economically the most dependent on China. But its economy hasn't tanked and exports to China are still going strong.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      With about 50% of the world's iron ore exports, Australia is in rare company.
    - trompetenaccoun 5y ago
      Toughest stance like one of their state premiers having a UFWD operative as a staffer and refusing to fire her even after she was exposed and found to spread conspiracy theories on social media about covid originating in the US and being spread by the American military? The guy who made a secret deal with the Chinese government while in Beijing that he doesn't want to tell the Australian people about: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/andrews-government-maintains-secrecy-on-deal-it-signed-with-china-20210427-p57mqb.html https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/andrews-governme... Sounds tough.
jollybean 5y ago
There's not much Trudeau could do. And although I don't like his foreign policy posture in general - he did do something hugely ballsy: Trudeau actually said publicly that nations ought to form a coalition to work against China's antagonism. This is a 'big deal' because it's actually what needs to happen - and - China is hugely sensitive and retaliatory about such things. China very effectively uses their central control to divide and conquer - politicians, business leaders, NGOs around the world are afraid of their wrath. For Trudeau to say this, my gosh, I can't even believe he did. That said, he and Canada do not have the power to lead that initiative. It might take a Putin-like moment, which maybe has arrived. Feckless, simply political leaders (all of them) around the world would have to get on board, and the US would have be very down with it. I fear a guy like Trump as president would probably ruin it for a variety of reasons. Or it could be done indirectly as a new form WTO, or like special trade partnership - the TPP would have been helpful. Or a new forum without Chinese tentacles, a bit like the WTO but with somewhat different objectives. As far as a 'Canadian' travelling in China, I wouldn't worry about it. It's a big place. It's authoritarian but most people have little to worry about.
- thevagrant 5y ago
  The example I find the most interesting and disturbing is that China spoke out against western sanctions on Russia (a nation violently destroying cities and lives right at this moment). On the flip side, when Lithuania named an office incorrectly using a word China didn't like, China was outraged and swift economic consequences were initiated in reteliation.
- ngc248 5y ago
  >>> I fear a guy like Trump as president would probably ruin it for a variety of reasons. I am not a trump supporter, in fact he started the tough policy on china, the quad etc Why would he mess it up. He may talk shit, but at least his policies have been sound and the Biden admin is continuing with a lot of them
  - jollybean 5y ago
    He messed up TPP. Trump has no moral compass, sees everything in terms of personal power dynamics and that's it. He can't fathom appeals to bigger ideas or issues, or even strategic concerns. He deals with countries, as though they are run by other, like-minded real-estate magnates who just want to make a bunch of money and wherein personal relations can be everything. He doesn't understand that his words are not 'his words' rather, they are the words of the USA. The obvious example is TPP. TPP was a way to get everyone on the table in Asia except China to have some kind of coordinated leverage. He killed it. His instinct about leverage is actually not that far off: USA has a lot more leverage against any single nation. But is strategic instinct is more than lacking, it's stupid. He just can't understand that the US isn't in a dominant position vis-a-vis China, but that 'most of the Pacific' actually is, to the extent they can work together. Also, Trump admires 'strong men', wants to get along with them, appease them, as there always deals in the works that could come from it. Trump's kids were raking in real-estate investments while he was president, because he's powerful, Chinese are attracted to that - and - they want to curry favour. Trump is all about selling his brand irrespective of whether it's his office or not to sell. 'Trump White House Steak Knives'. Trump is pretty good at being 'crazy like a fox' and escalating in anger which actually has some use in foreign policy, but that instinct can be just as much a drawback. TPP was going to be a really good deal. He dumped it for stupid reasons. Also, I don't doubt for a second that someone could convince him to throw Taiwan under the bus: "I talked to Xi. He's very, very smart man. Taiwan, you know, it's in China. They even call it China! Did you know that? I just found that out - he told me that. So I think that they need to work that out over there, you know. Xi is a wise man, wise man. We get along great, just great. We're going to do a lot of business together. Big business".
bllguo 5y ago
I think understanding of the Meng case is overly colored by reporting at the time. Looking at the wikipedia summary now, it's a bunch of law enforcement misconduct, questionable practices, and critical legal commentary. Hell the Canadian judge herself said "Isn't it unusual that one would see a fraud case with no actual harm many years later and one in which the alleged victim, a large institution, appears to have numerous people within the institution who had all that facts that are now said to have been misrepresented?" Frankly nothing seems redeeming at all for the US or Canada. in this light, the retaliation is justified, no? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Maybe reconsider how much to let the US boss you around.
dirtyid 5y ago
>charges were made up Or you know, PRC arrested 2 Canadian spies in retaliation (and will execute 1 drug dealer) and there's nothing Trudeau could do but act coy. I'm more surprised how many Canadians are useful idiots and believe PRC would round up 2 innocent Canadians out of 10s of thousands on mainland (100s thousands including HK). Somehow a alleged totalitarian security state that dismantled CIA network a few years prior don't keep tabs on Canadian espionage within their borders.
trompetenaccoun 5y ago
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/justin-trudeau-s-foolish-china-remarks-spark-anger-1.2421351 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/justin-trudeau-s-fool... He doesn't see the problem.

barbazoo 5y ago

What should the Canadian government have done differently?

thevagrant 5y ago

You think Trudeau commands the judicial system?

bluefirebrand 5y ago
No, but surely he has some say in foreign relations, aka how Canada responded to China.

bluefirebrand 5y ago

Everything I have seen out of Trudeau is that he is at the beck and call of special interest groups, not the Canadian people. I wouldn't go so far to say he's a puppet of China's government, but he's certainly timid with them.

ethbr0 5y ago
Special interest groups aside, being... delicate... about China is a position only a few countries can afford NOT to take. Antagonizing them may play well to a certain constituency, but they'll be the same ones kicking you out of office when the economy tanks. The only reason the world has moved as quickly on Russia as they have is because Russia's economy is 1/10th the size of China's.
- someperson 5y ago
  Australia has taken the western world's toughest stance on China, and is economically the most dependent on China. But its economy hasn't tanked and exports to China are still going strong.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    With about 50% of the world's iron ore exports, Australia is in rare company.
  - trompetenaccoun 5y ago
    Toughest stance like one of their state premiers having a UFWD operative as a staffer and refusing to fire her even after she was exposed and found to spread conspiracy theories on social media about covid originating in the US and being spread by the American military? The guy who made a secret deal with the Chinese government while in Beijing that he doesn't want to tell the Australian people about: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/andrews-government-maintains-secrecy-on-deal-it-signed-with-china-20210427-p57mqb.html https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/andrews-governme... Sounds tough.

jollybean 5y ago

There's not much Trudeau could do. And although I don't like his foreign policy posture in general - he did do something hugely ballsy: Trudeau actually said publicly that nations ought to form a coalition to work against China's antagonism. This is a 'big deal' because it's actually what needs to happen - and - China is hugely sensitive and retaliatory about such things. China very effectively uses their central control to divide and conquer - politicians, business leaders, NGOs around the world are afraid of their wrath. For Trudeau to say this, my gosh, I can't even believe he did. That said, he and Canada do not have the power to lead that initiative. It might take a Putin-like moment, which maybe has arrived. Feckless, simply political leaders (all of them) around the world would have to get on board, and the US would have be very down with it. I fear a guy like Trump as president would probably ruin it for a variety of reasons. Or it could be done indirectly as a new form WTO, or like special trade partnership - the TPP would have been helpful. Or a new forum without Chinese tentacles, a bit like the WTO but with somewhat different objectives. As far as a 'Canadian' travelling in China, I wouldn't worry about it. It's a big place. It's authoritarian but most people have little to worry about.

thevagrant 5y ago
The example I find the most interesting and disturbing is that China spoke out against western sanctions on Russia (a nation violently destroying cities and lives right at this moment). On the flip side, when Lithuania named an office incorrectly using a word China didn't like, China was outraged and swift economic consequences were initiated in reteliation.
ngc248 5y ago
>>> I fear a guy like Trump as president would probably ruin it for a variety of reasons. I am not a trump supporter, in fact he started the tough policy on china, the quad etc Why would he mess it up. He may talk shit, but at least his policies have been sound and the Biden admin is continuing with a lot of them
- jollybean 5y ago
  He messed up TPP. Trump has no moral compass, sees everything in terms of personal power dynamics and that's it. He can't fathom appeals to bigger ideas or issues, or even strategic concerns. He deals with countries, as though they are run by other, like-minded real-estate magnates who just want to make a bunch of money and wherein personal relations can be everything. He doesn't understand that his words are not 'his words' rather, they are the words of the USA. The obvious example is TPP. TPP was a way to get everyone on the table in Asia except China to have some kind of coordinated leverage. He killed it. His instinct about leverage is actually not that far off: USA has a lot more leverage against any single nation. But is strategic instinct is more than lacking, it's stupid. He just can't understand that the US isn't in a dominant position vis-a-vis China, but that 'most of the Pacific' actually is, to the extent they can work together. Also, Trump admires 'strong men', wants to get along with them, appease them, as there always deals in the works that could come from it. Trump's kids were raking in real-estate investments while he was president, because he's powerful, Chinese are attracted to that - and - they want to curry favour. Trump is all about selling his brand irrespective of whether it's his office or not to sell. 'Trump White House Steak Knives'. Trump is pretty good at being 'crazy like a fox' and escalating in anger which actually has some use in foreign policy, but that instinct can be just as much a drawback. TPP was going to be a really good deal. He dumped it for stupid reasons. Also, I don't doubt for a second that someone could convince him to throw Taiwan under the bus: "I talked to Xi. He's very, very smart man. Taiwan, you know, it's in China. They even call it China! Did you know that? I just found that out - he told me that. So I think that they need to work that out over there, you know. Xi is a wise man, wise man. We get along great, just great. We're going to do a lot of business together. Big business".

bllguo 5y ago

I think understanding of the Meng case is overly colored by reporting at the time. Looking at the wikipedia summary now, it's a bunch of law enforcement misconduct, questionable practices, and critical legal commentary. Hell the Canadian judge herself said "Isn't it unusual that one would see a fraud case with no actual harm many years later and one in which the alleged victim, a large institution, appears to have numerous people within the institution who had all that facts that are now said to have been misrepresented?" Frankly nothing seems redeeming at all for the US or Canada. in this light, the retaliation is justified, no? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Maybe reconsider how much to let the US boss you around.

dirtyid 5y ago

>charges were made up Or you know, PRC arrested 2 Canadian spies in retaliation (and will execute 1 drug dealer) and there's nothing Trudeau could do but act coy. I'm more surprised how many Canadians are useful idiots and believe PRC would round up 2 innocent Canadians out of 10s of thousands on mainland (100s thousands including HK). Somehow a alleged totalitarian security state that dismantled CIA network a few years prior don't keep tabs on Canadian espionage within their borders.

trompetenaccoun 5y ago

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/justin-trudeau-s-foolish-china-remarks-spark-anger-1.2421351 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/justin-trudeau-s-fool... He doesn't see the problem.