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As soon as private industry is funding and running nuclear power including the decommissioning costs, plus selling their energy at market rates (in the UK we ha

by ljf 5y ago

As soon as private industry is funding and running nuclear power including the decommissioning costs, plus selling their energy at market rates (in the UK we have guaranteed the new nuclear plants rates that are higher than the next most expensive generators costs) then I'll believe that. The only way these are remotely economical is when they are funded by the tax payer before the are built, while they run, and after they close down. Any examples that goes against that? I'd be very interested to learn about them. I think as a way to ensure energy independence and remove fossil fuels they are good, but we cannot pretend they don't come with massive costs, and don't yet pay their own way.

p_l 5y ago
The problem is that markets are supremely bad at building a stable electricity grid. So on one hand wind and solar are getting cheaper per MW, but it doesn't include the effect they have on destabilising both the grid and electricity markets - in fact, solar getting cheaper is probably going to cause a stop on buildout in some places, because the price of solar MW is going to be too low to deal with all the time you're not producing - either due to lack of sun, or due to curtailment. And we do not really have any storage available - the only systems that are 1) not experimental 2) usable for anything other than frequency stabilisation; are the pumped hydro - and those are geographically limited. At least when it's windy, you can use wind turbines as sinks for stability. Intermittent nature of solar and wind is too intermittent for most industrial sinks. Meanwhile unpredictable nature of generation from wind and solar push the grid to buildout LNG/petroleum powered gas turbines, due to their very short delay on ramping up/down (IIRC, second only to hydro). So you end up in situation where market approach to electricity is going to prevent decarbonisation, unless you hugely upend what is being bought on the market. Personally I've been thinking of electricity market paying only for predictable (aka "dispatchable") low-carbon power plants, or at least with huge priority. Solar and Wind could still compete on such market by being paired with storage systems into Virtual Power Plants (something that already exists), and the rest of the generation would be sold on spot market during peaks, or preferably to dedicated sinks like green hydrogen production.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  We do not have storage yet just because it is not built out yet. Thus far, a renewable euro has been just overwhelmingly better used to build out generating capacity, even where intermittent. The only problems in storage are picking which will be cheapest or otherwise most valuable -- e.g. hydrogen, ammonia, and liquid air are entirely the latter -- and that by waiting, you get more for your euro. Storage cost is plummeting much faster even than solar, and solar is already so cheap that building 2x, 3x, 6x overcapacity is in easy reach. The cheapest, most efficient present storage is pumped hydro, which can be used in very many places where native hydro generation cannot be, i.e. almost anyplace with hills. But iron-air battery factories are under construction, for very cheap and safe storage, and that will compete with many other alternatives. Each has strengths for certain places, all work, and operating cost is in all cases very small, so building "the wrong one" just means you spent more up front than you maybe had to. Trotting out the "ooh, storage" argument only demonstrates you don't have one.
- danhor 5y ago
  The issue is, that in a traditional electrical system, you need both base load and dispatchable power plants. And while nuclear power plants work as base load, they're really bad for dispatchable power, both economically and in how they work. So if you want to base an electrical grid solely on nuclear power without additional fossil fuel plants, you need either a lot of often unused (and thus very, very expensive) nuclear capacity or some kind of .. storage. It's similar to renewables in that regard, although much more predictable and reliable (with exceptions, such as france this winter).
  - p_l 5y ago
    That's why I'd rather see a variable sink like electrolysers producing green hydrogen for non-electricity related purposes or disconnected operations. A mix of renewable and nuclear that, instead of curtailment, uses excess renewable production for other purposes.

by ljf 5y ago

p_l 5y ago

The problem is that markets are supremely bad at building a stable electricity grid. So on one hand wind and solar are getting cheaper per MW, but it doesn't include the effect they have on destabilising both the grid and electricity markets - in fact, solar getting cheaper is probably going to cause a stop on buildout in some places, because the price of solar MW is going to be too low to deal with all the time you're not producing - either due to lack of sun, or due to curtailment. And we do not really have any storage available - the only systems that are 1) not experimental 2) usable for anything other than frequency stabilisation; are the pumped hydro - and those are geographically limited. At least when it's windy, you can use wind turbines as sinks for stability. Intermittent nature of solar and wind is too intermittent for most industrial sinks. Meanwhile unpredictable nature of generation from wind and solar push the grid to buildout LNG/petroleum powered gas turbines, due to their very short delay on ramping up/down (IIRC, second only to hydro). So you end up in situation where market approach to electricity is going to prevent decarbonisation, unless you hugely upend what is being bought on the market. Personally I've been thinking of electricity market paying only for predictable (aka "dispatchable") low-carbon power plants, or at least with huge priority. Solar and Wind could still compete on such market by being paired with storage systems into Virtual Power Plants (something that already exists), and the rest of the generation would be sold on spot market during peaks, or preferably to dedicated sinks like green hydrogen production.

ncmncm 5y ago
We do not have storage yet just because it is not built out yet. Thus far, a renewable euro has been just overwhelmingly better used to build out generating capacity, even where intermittent. The only problems in storage are picking which will be cheapest or otherwise most valuable -- e.g. hydrogen, ammonia, and liquid air are entirely the latter -- and that by waiting, you get more for your euro. Storage cost is plummeting much faster even than solar, and solar is already so cheap that building 2x, 3x, 6x overcapacity is in easy reach. The cheapest, most efficient present storage is pumped hydro, which can be used in very many places where native hydro generation cannot be, i.e. almost anyplace with hills. But iron-air battery factories are under construction, for very cheap and safe storage, and that will compete with many other alternatives. Each has strengths for certain places, all work, and operating cost is in all cases very small, so building "the wrong one" just means you spent more up front than you maybe had to. Trotting out the "ooh, storage" argument only demonstrates you don't have one.
danhor 5y ago
The issue is, that in a traditional electrical system, you need both base load and dispatchable power plants. And while nuclear power plants work as base load, they're really bad for dispatchable power, both economically and in how they work. So if you want to base an electrical grid solely on nuclear power without additional fossil fuel plants, you need either a lot of often unused (and thus very, very expensive) nuclear capacity or some kind of .. storage. It's similar to renewables in that regard, although much more predictable and reliable (with exceptions, such as france this winter).
- p_l 5y ago
  That's why I'd rather see a variable sink like electrolysers producing green hydrogen for non-electricity related purposes or disconnected operations. A mix of renewable and nuclear that, instead of curtailment, uses excess renewable production for other purposes.