4 ms·

showcasing female heroes as displaying exaggerated masculine abilities (in a sexualized female body) is belittling to actual feminine virtues

wolverine876 5y ago
Who cares what you think - or what I think? Who are you or anyone to define what these women do or want - and then weakly try to appeal to authority by assigning your opinions the words "actual feminine virtues"? Many men used to define those 'virtues' as not working, voting, having an opinion, and as being obedient, sexy, and sexually available to them (but not to other men!) - how convenient! > sexualized female body So? Does it intimidate you? Should they hide or show their bodies based on what you prefer, or on what you think is right? Who the f- are you (or I) to have an opinion on what they should do. Should I have an opinion on what you do? Meanwhile, women fight wars, run countries and corporations. They don't post much on Hacker News - look at this discussion of men saying what women should do, just like the old days. I wonder why we don't see more women here?
- smegsicle 5y ago
  re-framing traditional feminine virtues (those things that most women are good at and enjoy, and which make families stronger and society flourish) as worth less than traditional masculine virtues is offensive to a lot of people, and is itself an appeal to an extremist ideology
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > re-framing traditional feminine virtues (those things that most women are good at and enjoy, and which make families stronger and society flourish) as worth less than traditional masculine virtues is offensive to a lot of people, and is itself an appeal to an extremist ideology Which people? And so what if they are offended? These women should change what they do because you don't like it? Again, who are you (or I) or these putative offended people to tell these women what to do? > traditional feminine virtues Which don't exist, except in the minds of the people who want to control what other people do. > worth less than traditional masculine virtues Who compared anything between whatever you think masculine and feminine are? > an appeal to an extremist ideology So women working, getting educations, living independently of men, living their lives they way they please - that is extremist?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- splintercell 5y ago
  > So? Does it intimidate you? Should they hide or show their bodies based on what you prefer, or on what you think is right? Millions of years of evolution went in to get them that body, and similar number of years of evolution for me to have that reaction seeing that body. No, I am not going to join in the collective delusion that this stuff isn't real, or socially created or can be turned off at will.
vannevar 5y ago
Right, though I think I'd maybe use the term "values" rather than "virtues." The underlying message of these movies is that everyone---women included---should be judged by masculine standards (plus a traditional notion of female beauty). But a pseudo-feminism that imagines a world where women succeed only through a combination of feats of strength and hotness is not feminism in any meaningful sense and serves to maintain male primacy. Changing out women for men in the same old stories is not the answer; the answer is to change the stories to put feminine values on par with masculine values. That doesn't mean we can't have kick-ass women heroes, it just means that kick-ass heroes shouldn't be our only benchmark.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > change the stories to put feminine values on par with masculine values That's important too - and male characters should have those values - but no reason we can't do both. Stop trying to put women in whatever box you like. They can have whatever values/virtues/etc that they please. Women serve regularly in militaries around the world, for example, and have for awhile. What do say to women who are fighter pilots?
  - vannevar 5y ago
    They can have whatever values/virtues/etc that they please Sure---but how society responds to a woman's choice is a collective act that she has little control over. Nothing in my comment suggested putting women in a box, exactly the opposite. It's a spectrum, where not all men adopt masculine values and not all women adopt feminine ones. There are women who relate more to what are thought of as masculine values, like fighter pilots, and it's great that society is increasingly accepting of them. But just saying women can join the men's club is not real social change. Real social change is respecting values that are not typically associated with men. Values revolving around love and human relationships, for instance, rather than violence and mechanics. Ask yourself why the military came to mind as an exemplary set of values for the modern woman. I'd suggest that it is because you regard military service as a desirable epitome of masculinity, and if women can achieve that same peak, then they can be regarded as equals in society. But to your own point about choice, even if no women choose to join the military, we should have female heroes who are regarded on par with any male war hero.

wolverine876 5y ago

Who cares what you think - or what I think? Who are you or anyone to define what these women do or want - and then weakly try to appeal to authority by assigning your opinions the words "actual feminine virtues"? Many men used to define those 'virtues' as not working, voting, having an opinion, and as being obedient, sexy, and sexually available to them (but not to other men!) - how convenient! > sexualized female body So? Does it intimidate you? Should they hide or show their bodies based on what you prefer, or on what you think is right? Who the f- are you (or I) to have an opinion on what they should do. Should I have an opinion on what you do? Meanwhile, women fight wars, run countries and corporations. They don't post much on Hacker News - look at this discussion of men saying what women should do, just like the old days. I wonder why we don't see more women here?

smegsicle 5y ago
re-framing traditional feminine virtues (those things that most women are good at and enjoy, and which make families stronger and society flourish) as worth less than traditional masculine virtues is offensive to a lot of people, and is itself an appeal to an extremist ideology
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > re-framing traditional feminine virtues (those things that most women are good at and enjoy, and which make families stronger and society flourish) as worth less than traditional masculine virtues is offensive to a lot of people, and is itself an appeal to an extremist ideology Which people? And so what if they are offended? These women should change what they do because you don't like it? Again, who are you (or I) or these putative offended people to tell these women what to do? > traditional feminine virtues Which don't exist, except in the minds of the people who want to control what other people do. > worth less than traditional masculine virtues Who compared anything between whatever you think masculine and feminine are? > an appeal to an extremist ideology So women working, getting educations, living independently of men, living their lives they way they please - that is extremist?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
splintercell 5y ago
> So? Does it intimidate you? Should they hide or show their bodies based on what you prefer, or on what you think is right? Millions of years of evolution went in to get them that body, and similar number of years of evolution for me to have that reaction seeing that body. No, I am not going to join in the collective delusion that this stuff isn't real, or socially created or can be turned off at will.

vannevar 5y ago

Right, though I think I'd maybe use the term "values" rather than "virtues." The underlying message of these movies is that everyone---women included---should be judged by masculine standards (plus a traditional notion of female beauty). But a pseudo-feminism that imagines a world where women succeed only through a combination of feats of strength and hotness is not feminism in any meaningful sense and serves to maintain male primacy. Changing out women for men in the same old stories is not the answer; the answer is to change the stories to put feminine values on par with masculine values. That doesn't mean we can't have kick-ass women heroes, it just means that kick-ass heroes shouldn't be our only benchmark.

wolverine876 5y ago
> change the stories to put feminine values on par with masculine values That's important too - and male characters should have those values - but no reason we can't do both. Stop trying to put women in whatever box you like. They can have whatever values/virtues/etc that they please. Women serve regularly in militaries around the world, for example, and have for awhile. What do say to women who are fighter pilots?
- vannevar 5y ago
  They can have whatever values/virtues/etc that they please Sure---but how society responds to a woman's choice is a collective act that she has little control over. Nothing in my comment suggested putting women in a box, exactly the opposite. It's a spectrum, where not all men adopt masculine values and not all women adopt feminine ones. There are women who relate more to what are thought of as masculine values, like fighter pilots, and it's great that society is increasingly accepting of them. But just saying women can join the men's club is not real social change. Real social change is respecting values that are not typically associated with men. Values revolving around love and human relationships, for instance, rather than violence and mechanics. Ask yourself why the military came to mind as an exemplary set of values for the modern woman. I'd suggest that it is because you regard military service as a desirable epitome of masculinity, and if women can achieve that same peak, then they can be regarded as equals in society. But to your own point about choice, even if no women choose to join the military, we should have female heroes who are regarded on par with any male war hero.