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This is our staunch "ally" in the Middle East (along with Israel of course). Saudi Arabia is presently conducting a genocide in Yemen with US-manufactured and s

by jmyeet 5y ago

This is our staunch "ally" in the Middle East (along with Israel of course). Saudi Arabia is presently conducting a genocide in Yemen with US-manufactured and supplied weapons. Their autocratic leader approved the operation to kill a Saudi-citizen and US resident journalist in Turkey. It also funds madrasses that promote extremism because it deflects away the attention of their general populace from the unpopular monarchy to the West in general and the United States in particular. Pervasive use of the death penalty is obviously an issue but far from their biggest sin. Execution as a form of punishment is pretty much completely pointless.

aaomidi 5y ago
- qeternity 5y ago
  > Honestly, we in the US really don't get to criticize this elsewhere until we clean up our own shit. Or you can call out both. It's not as if they are remotely dependent on each other, are they?
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    They are and I don't really know how to teach Americans how dependent they are. Legitmately most Americans don't realize what power they hold over the world.
    - qeternity 5y ago
      > Legitmately most Americans don't realize what power they hold over the world. I’m an American who has lived and worked outside the US for most of my adult life. Trust me when I say this is not lost on me. I still believe that we can encourage every to be better.
- mmaunder 5y ago
  > we burn shit down You’re promoting anarchy as a way to create a just society. Exactly whose shit will you burn down? What if someone burns your shit down in protest? What if it’s something you spent a lifetime building? What if your children are inside the shit someone chose to burn down? Ever actually seen a violent revolution or been the victim of one? Russia is burning shit down right now. You good with that? > Once we fix it here we can demand other countries follow suit. So wait until our society is perfect before we have the right to express an opinion on things like mass executions. While we burn shit down. Got it.
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    The burn shit down is if the state is actively blocking progress. From the ashes rises anew. Sometimes the way to fix things is to fundamentally and radically reject them and fight them. Historically, this is the only thing that has brought change. I hope we don't have to go there, but power does not want to give up power.
- qwytw 5y ago
  With that attitude barely anybody in the world would have any right to criticize what Saudi Arabia is doing. The worst examples in Western Europe (and other developed countries) might not be as egregious as in the US but their justice systems have their fair share of issues. What you're saying basically that Americans during WW2 shouldn't have had the right to criticize the Holocaust because of Jim Crow and sending Japanese to concentration camps... All three things are terrible but one is on an altogether different level of evilness (just like what's happening now).
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    This isn't saying we don't have a right to criticize them. Its saying if you're criticizing them and you're American, please double that anger and add a new recipient to it. The recipient being your country.
    - qwytw 5y ago
      Not I'm not American, nor do I live there. "Double the anger" about what's happening in the US still seems like still at least few times less anger than I think it would be fair to direct towards Saudi Arabia.
- osigurdson 5y ago
  So do you keep buying Saudi oil in the meantime while you are sorting all of this out?
  - landemva 5y ago
    Feds actively restrict the domestic energy industry which increases demand for Saudi energy. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/biden-administration-pausing-new-oil-and-gas-leases-amid-legal-battle-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/biden-administration-pausing... No real surprise, as Biden promised to restrict USA energy while campaigning. https://joebiden.com/9-key-elements-of-joe-bidens-plan-for-a-clean-energy-revolution/ https://joebiden.com/9-key-elements-of-joe-bidens-plan-for-a...
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    You think I'm going and buying oil?
- GuardianCaveman 5y ago
  This isn’t a binary thing where you have to have a perfect justice system to criticize any other system especially like Saudi where they are executing convicts who are bloggers and Shia and political enemies.
RobertMiller 5y ago
I just want to point out there are several aspects to punishment. We often speak of rehabilitation and deterrence, but there is also denunciation, incapacitation, and retribution (the most maligned of the five.) Execution isn't very good at deterrence and obviously is antithetical to rehabilitation. However execution happens to be exceptionally effective at incapacitation; a criminal cannot re-offend if he's dead. And of course, much of the public support for execution is also motivated by retribution. On the topic of retribution, I want to be clear that I don't support the death penalty, but nevertheless I think a bit of retribution in the justice system plays a roll in suppressing vigilantism. If the government doesn't pay at least a little lip service to retribution, I think you'll have more people taking matters into their own hands.
- lmz 5y ago
  Yup. In the extreme e.g. someone kills 3 of my family members and only gets a year in prison? Maybe I should just kill them myself and get 6 months in prison.
- jmyeet 5y ago
  At least in the US, retribution isn't officially part of the criminal justice system. You see why it's problematic when you look at how it creeps into the system anyway. The death penalty is disproportionately applied to minories and exoneration of death row inmates by new DNA evidence also disproportionately skews towards minorities (meaning they were false convictions to begin with).
  - RobertMiller 5y ago
    Whether it's officially part of the system or not, the public's desire to see retribution is definitely on the minds of American legislators when they write laws. Thirst for retribution also plays a roll in the public tolerating abusive police and poor conditions in prisons (which are arguably manifestations of vigilantism.) But yes, I oppose the death penalty, particularly in America, because I don't trust the government to get it right.
- philjohn 5y ago
aaaaaaaaata 5y ago

by jmyeet 5y ago

aaomidi 5y ago

qeternity 5y ago
> Honestly, we in the US really don't get to criticize this elsewhere until we clean up our own shit. Or you can call out both. It's not as if they are remotely dependent on each other, are they?
- aaomidi 5y ago
  They are and I don't really know how to teach Americans how dependent they are. Legitmately most Americans don't realize what power they hold over the world.
  - qeternity 5y ago
    > Legitmately most Americans don't realize what power they hold over the world. I’m an American who has lived and worked outside the US for most of my adult life. Trust me when I say this is not lost on me. I still believe that we can encourage every to be better.
mmaunder 5y ago
> we burn shit down You’re promoting anarchy as a way to create a just society. Exactly whose shit will you burn down? What if someone burns your shit down in protest? What if it’s something you spent a lifetime building? What if your children are inside the shit someone chose to burn down? Ever actually seen a violent revolution or been the victim of one? Russia is burning shit down right now. You good with that? > Once we fix it here we can demand other countries follow suit. So wait until our society is perfect before we have the right to express an opinion on things like mass executions. While we burn shit down. Got it.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  The burn shit down is if the state is actively blocking progress. From the ashes rises anew. Sometimes the way to fix things is to fundamentally and radically reject them and fight them. Historically, this is the only thing that has brought change. I hope we don't have to go there, but power does not want to give up power.
qwytw 5y ago
With that attitude barely anybody in the world would have any right to criticize what Saudi Arabia is doing. The worst examples in Western Europe (and other developed countries) might not be as egregious as in the US but their justice systems have their fair share of issues. What you're saying basically that Americans during WW2 shouldn't have had the right to criticize the Holocaust because of Jim Crow and sending Japanese to concentration camps... All three things are terrible but one is on an altogether different level of evilness (just like what's happening now).
- aaomidi 5y ago
  This isn't saying we don't have a right to criticize them. Its saying if you're criticizing them and you're American, please double that anger and add a new recipient to it. The recipient being your country.
  - qwytw 5y ago
    Not I'm not American, nor do I live there. "Double the anger" about what's happening in the US still seems like still at least few times less anger than I think it would be fair to direct towards Saudi Arabia.
osigurdson 5y ago
So do you keep buying Saudi oil in the meantime while you are sorting all of this out?
- landemva 5y ago
  Feds actively restrict the domestic energy industry which increases demand for Saudi energy. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/biden-administration-pausing-new-oil-and-gas-leases-amid-legal-battle-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/biden-administration-pausing... No real surprise, as Biden promised to restrict USA energy while campaigning. https://joebiden.com/9-key-elements-of-joe-bidens-plan-for-a-clean-energy-revolution/ https://joebiden.com/9-key-elements-of-joe-bidens-plan-for-a...
- aaomidi 5y ago
  You think I'm going and buying oil?
GuardianCaveman 5y ago
This isn’t a binary thing where you have to have a perfect justice system to criticize any other system especially like Saudi where they are executing convicts who are bloggers and Shia and political enemies.

RobertMiller 5y ago

I just want to point out there are several aspects to punishment. We often speak of rehabilitation and deterrence, but there is also denunciation, incapacitation, and retribution (the most maligned of the five.) Execution isn't very good at deterrence and obviously is antithetical to rehabilitation. However execution happens to be exceptionally effective at incapacitation; a criminal cannot re-offend if he's dead. And of course, much of the public support for execution is also motivated by retribution. On the topic of retribution, I want to be clear that I don't support the death penalty, but nevertheless I think a bit of retribution in the justice system plays a roll in suppressing vigilantism. If the government doesn't pay at least a little lip service to retribution, I think you'll have more people taking matters into their own hands.

lmz 5y ago
Yup. In the extreme e.g. someone kills 3 of my family members and only gets a year in prison? Maybe I should just kill them myself and get 6 months in prison.
jmyeet 5y ago
At least in the US, retribution isn't officially part of the criminal justice system. You see why it's problematic when you look at how it creeps into the system anyway. The death penalty is disproportionately applied to minories and exoneration of death row inmates by new DNA evidence also disproportionately skews towards minorities (meaning they were false convictions to begin with).
- RobertMiller 5y ago
  Whether it's officially part of the system or not, the public's desire to see retribution is definitely on the minds of American legislators when they write laws. Thirst for retribution also plays a roll in the public tolerating abusive police and poor conditions in prisons (which are arguably manifestations of vigilantism.) But yes, I oppose the death penalty, particularly in America, because I don't trust the government to get it right.
philjohn 5y ago

aaaaaaaaata 5y ago