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Saudi Arabia puts 81 to death in its largest mass execution
- mabbo 5y agoFor some context, the United States put 11 people to death in 2021, and has put 78 people to death since the start of 2018. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_Un... That isn't to say the US is better, worse, or just as bad. Just something to compare it to. Edit much later: you know what, I was wrong to comment this on its own. There's a lot more nuance to this and it's not a fair comparison at all. Those that called me out on this are in the right.
- andrepd 5y agoIt also has 10x the population. And due process. There is no relevance to that comparison whatsoever.
- colechristensen 5y agoThe US has killed thousands of “militants” (and many people who were certainly innocent) with drone strikes in places where we’re not engaged in active conflict and without due process. It may or may not be wrong, case by case, certainly arguments to be made for both, but seems about the same motivation just further away than SA killing militants.
- missedthecue 5y agoThis isn't a political statement on the justice of any given drone strikes, but I feel like there is a difference between combatants and criminals.
- thfuran 5y agoWhen they're only combatants because we showed up at their house with guns, I'm not sure the difference is what you seem to be implying.
- missedthecue 5y agoThey were fighting and killing before we arrived.
- TameAntelope 5y agoExecution is completely different from war casualties.
- RobertMiller 5y agoWhen you start talking about targeted drone strikes outside of war zones, the difference seems thinner than a razor's edge.
- TameAntelope 5y ago"War zones" is doing a lot of work here for you.
- RobertMiller 5y agoIt's the same thing colechristensen brought up: > The US has killed thousands of “militants” (and many people who were certainly innocent) with drone strikes in places where we’re not engaged in active conflict and without due process. If you want to call those "war casualties", then those war casualties look a whole lot like executions. And if they weren't war casualties on account of not being in a war zone, then they are simply executions.
- TameAntelope 5y agoYou must be in captivity to be executed.
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- sdoering 5y agoDue process might not be so clear cut [0]. But that might be tainted by my personal values. I personally value a legal system that refrains from the potential of killing an innocent person. [0]: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence/executed-but-possibly-innocent https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence/execute...
- dane-pgp 5y agoFor extra context, here is a timeline of when countries have abolished capital punishment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country#Abolition_chronology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country#... The list is growing at a rate of about 1 country per year, which, if continued, would mean that the 21st century would be the last in which countries formally kill their own citizens.
- vmception 5y ago> And due process It is mere coincidence that you respect one country's due process and don't respect another country's due process. Most places have non-arbitrary paths to punishment or any state actions, codified somewhere. And our media and pop culture just doesn't acknowledge that. The similarities are greater than the dissimilarities.
- FredPret 5y agoA king saying "off with his head" is technically a "legal process" but is not one with any modern moral justification.
- vmception 5y agoIt wouldn't have been as simple as the King or MBS saying that. There are some nuanced articles about the judiciary there, how they work and how they could improve.
- grey-area 5y agoNo. Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship run by tyrants who order members of their own family kidnapped abroad, journalists murdered then cut up their bodies to hide the crime, and imprison then extort leading businessmen to consolidate power and money in their hands. They have far more in common with Putin’s Russia than the US. The US is a long way from that, whatever its flaws (and there are many flaws, chief amongst them making alliances with brutal dictators like the Saudis).
- atdt 5y agoState-sanctioned murder is always dressed in a judge's robe, even in Saudi Arabia.
- moralestapia 5y ago>And due process. Whew ... there's dozens of convicts on the death row that are presumably innocent. Even if some of them get acquitted at some point, having spent 20 years of your life behind bars not knowing whether the state is going to murder you for something you didn't do is not that far from barbaric. So ... like another guy said, you're just accustomed to the set of rules of the environment where you belong, in the same way as a Saudi could think of executions as a regular thing (bc, well... they are).
- beachy 5y agoThere is relevance in that both countries execute their own citizens.
- lamontcg 5y ago> And due process. nearly all of us here on this forum would expect to get due process, but the due process for the people who wind up on death row is often a joke.
- Ekaros 5y agoDoes that include the drone strikes?
- bratwurst3000 5y ago
- klyrs 5y agoIf we're going to criticize other countries for human rights abuses, we should get our house in order.
- bratwurst3000 5y agoEhmmm yes there is criticism of the death penalt in the us .... So what has this to do with Saudi arabia??? And maybe the people critizing the death penalty in saudi arabia are NOT the same people who engage in keeping the death penalty in the us???
- bratwurst3000 5y agoImagine someone beating you to death and the only reactions of your souroundings would be „ hey someone else is also doing this“ thats no point and no help at all
- jonfw 5y agoThe goal of this post isn't to distribute actionable advice to those directly affected by the event. The odds that they're reading a US tech forum are slim. Most of us here are looking to better understand what's going on in the world when we read articles like this, and the additional context OP shared is helpful to do so
- bratwurst3000 5y agoMay I ask how it did help you to better understand the situation? I cant imagine people going „ I cant grasp whats going on in saudi arabia …. HOLD ON the usa is also killing people … now I understand „
- jonfw 5y ago
- TedShiller 5y agoAlso, the weather is 63 degrees Fahrenheit today
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- alephnan 5y agoAs the United States sanctions Russian oil, because Russia is the bad guy, the admin is seeking oil from Saudi Arabia.
- dmingod666 5y agoInternational law and human rights are for : - poor/light weight countries - adversaries and competition For the self and allies there is only: - Rule of law only until it comes in the way of Self interest -- in contention, self interest always trumps. With this rule-set a lot of things make sense.
- myko 5y agoSA in Yemen and Russia in Ukraine are both horrible, and the US needs to not rely on either country. Unfortunately, we are years away from that - decades maybe, and attempts to move to green / renewable energy within the US are too few and too slow to speed that up. I hope that changes soon.
- enaaem 5y agoThanks to shale the US is actually near energy independent.
- zdragnar 5y agoIf we had the refineries for it, sure. With the EPA and Democratic party, building enough refinery capacity is a fantasy. As it is, we'll need to settle for exporting what we can't use very well and importing what we can make better use of, until we have sufficient battery capacity tied to grids and EVs are plentiful and cheap.
- Retric 5y agoThe US has zero need for such foreign oil right now with imports and exports very close to balancing out since 2020. However, we are connected to the global oil market so our prices rise and fall with global prices.
- uwagar 5y agothey behead all of them?
- worker767424 5y agoThere are worse ways to go. You'd lose consciousness in just a few seconds from a sudden drop in blood pressure.
- Ekaros 5y agoI think most execution methods are worse... Some might be better, but generally they are not used...
- CodeGlitch 5y agoAs long as it's in one cut. Multiple cuts would be horrific.
- oblio 5y agoDidn't we invent a device that took care of this problem? About 300 years ago?
- RobertMiller 5y ago*230 years ago. But nobody uses guillotines anymore. The Saudis use a sword.
- oblio 5y agoThat was my point, why be so barbaric even in the method of execution, when we created a cleaner solution for this back in the day of the horse and buggy?
- kevin_thibedeau 5y agoHappened to Mishima when his second couldn't cut after he'd opened up his belly.
- pstuart 5y agoInspired by a quote from MBS in the article, I search for Qaran and death penalty and found this on Wikipedia: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter, Except for those who return repenting before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. — Qur'an, Sura 5, ayat 33 & 34[8] That's incredibly vague and appears to be made for abuse of interpretation.
- pstuart 5y agoNote: I believe that everybody is entitled to their own relationship with "God" however that may be (I'm an atheist), but these religions want to extend their laws on everybody else -- and that's a serious problem that needs to be addressed by society.
- thr0wawayf00 5y ago> That's incredibly vague and appears to be made for abuse of interpretation. One could argue this is true for most (if not all) religious texts
- gswdh 5y ago
- boomboomsubban 5y agoI believe they are referring to qisas, which is a form of retaliation in kind. It's pretty explicit that you can kill a murderer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas
- pstuart 5y agoNo, simple blasphemy is a crime. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-execution-apostasy/saudi-court-gives-death-penalty-to-man-who-renounced-his-muslim-faith-idUSKBN0LS0S620150224 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-execution-apostasy/...
- jmyeet 5y agoThis is our staunch "ally" in the Middle East (along with Israel of course). Saudi Arabia is presently conducting a genocide in Yemen with US-manufactured and supplied weapons. Their autocratic leader approved the operation to kill a Saudi-citizen and US resident journalist in Turkey. It also funds madrasses that promote extremism because it deflects away the attention of their general populace from the unpopular monarchy to the West in general and the United States in particular. Pervasive use of the death penalty is obviously an issue but far from their biggest sin. Execution as a form of punishment is pretty much completely pointless.
- aaomidi 5y ago
- qeternity 5y ago> Honestly, we in the US really don't get to criticize this elsewhere until we clean up our own shit. Or you can call out both. It's not as if they are remotely dependent on each other, are they?
- aaomidi 5y agoThey are and I don't really know how to teach Americans how dependent they are. Legitmately most Americans don't realize what power they hold over the world.
- qeternity 5y ago> Legitmately most Americans don't realize what power they hold over the world. I’m an American who has lived and worked outside the US for most of my adult life. Trust me when I say this is not lost on me. I still believe that we can encourage every to be better.
- mmaunder 5y ago> we burn shit down You’re promoting anarchy as a way to create a just society. Exactly whose shit will you burn down? What if someone burns your shit down in protest? What if it’s something you spent a lifetime building? What if your children are inside the shit someone chose to burn down? Ever actually seen a violent revolution or been the victim of one? Russia is burning shit down right now. You good with that? > Once we fix it here we can demand other countries follow suit. So wait until our society is perfect before we have the right to express an opinion on things like mass executions. While we burn shit down. Got it.
- 323 5y agoA good (long) recent article about MBS and Saudi Arabia: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/04/mohammed-bin-salman-saudi-arabia-palace-interview/622822/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/04/mohamme...
- qeternity 5y agoPiggy backing off of this, Blood and Oil is a really good read if you want to understand modern KSA / MBS.
- dannyphantom 5y agoAbsolutely fantastic article to read, thanks.
- vmception 5y ago> It also publicly nailed the severed body and head of a convicted extremist to a pole as a warning to others. Such crucifixions after execution, while rare, do occur in the kingdom. Friendly reminder that the primary distinction between groups in that region is whether you have a nation state already, or merely aspire to have one. We demonize the people that merely aspire to have one, and their practices like the beheadings. It is useful to acknowledge that they are the same practices of the ones that achieve sovereign immunity. It usually comes down to the underlining belief system, as they overlap with a nearby sovereign party. Western media isn't that discerning, but it could be.
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- it_citizen 5y agoTangential: Raif Badawi got freed yesterday although he is still under a 10 year travel ban. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60714086 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60714086 Raif Badawi is a blogger who was charged of "insulting Islam through electronic channels". He was sentenced of seven years in prison, torture and 600 lashes. Of course no human being could take 600 lashes in one go, they just gave him the first 50 and dragged him back to jail to wait to be able to carry out the rest of the sentence. Due to poor health condition, they were never able to. Let it be a good reminder of how archaic and retrograde the justice system is in Saudi Arabia.
- mildmotive 5y agoMaking Saudi Arabia look like the sole aggressor is incredibly dishonest after the numerous crimes Iran and its allies have openly been committing against sunnis. This issue is not as one-sided as the article tries to make it out to be. The Iranian regime is one of the biggest factors in the destabilisation of the Middle East. It’s worth mentioning that shiites have been, and still are killing sunnis in Iraq, Iran, Syria and Lebanon, in massive numbers. Kids are not spared here. Seeing all the death and destruction committed by the shiites, Iran and its allies like Russia in the Middle East, I’ve learnt to take what often appears to be pro-Iranian propaganda against Saudi Arabia with a grain of salt, and you should too. There is a lot to say about what Iran alone does to its sunni population. This issue requires us to look at it from a nuanced perspective lest we do many victims in these countries injustice. Edit: Removed an example of oppression which I unfortunately have no reference for anymore. If you want to see what’s going on, material is readily available on the internet. Search for example for “Hezbola”.
- kingofpandora 5y ago> I’ve personally seen a video of a shiite menacingly threatening a couple of Syrian refugee kids with a knife in Lebanon. Kids are not spared here. Syrians can be Shiites too .. and how do you know the threats were not directed at them for being, say, foreigners, which is unfortunately a common reaction to refugees around the world.
- mildmotive 5y agoThis is far from the only example. But for this specific example, that’s all I have from memory, the details are lost together with the video. Many of these disappear from Youtube because of Youtube’s strange ToS and flagging system. Facebook and Twitter also deleted a lot of documentation of the war. In any case, there are still plenty of material out there. I’m not saying anything that’s not already well-established, that there is plenty of oppression against sunnis by the shia. Look at the Syrian regime, Irans involvment in various war-torn countries, the terror-organization Hezbola, shia militias in Iraq. The evidence is already out. Denying this is more absurd than denying Russias aggression against Ukraine, if we judge by the amount of testimonies and footage there is out there, and for how long the conflict has been going on.